Is this a really rare sword for sale on Ebay?

[mikesguns]

I am a relatively new collector and this is my first time posting on here so I pose a question, and I know I cannot afford this sword, but my question is, am I reading this correctly out of Fuller and Gregorys book about this being a super rare sword with only a few examples known to exist? It looks marvelous! Does anyone know the history and rarity of this piece? I would love to buy it but at the price it is at, can it go much higher? Any other info you guys can provide would be greatly helpful. Thanks and this is a great site!

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=007

[Hermes]

Hi and welcome, check this out. Can it go much higher, i would say yes.

 

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4567

[GregD]

This sword(or one like it)was the subject of another post(Railway mark by Stephen).

Here is another by this smith.Its Showato(Showa stamped)apparently folded steel but oil tempered.

Greg

[Brian]

Mike,

I think this one would appeal to the militaria collectors. Nihonto enthusiasts might not be as attracted to it, as it is basically a rarer military sword, but probably not traditionally made and quenched. Personally, I'd prefer a good Gendaito, but to someone looking to collect the WW2 military variants it would be something unusual.

I see ppl paying upwards of $800 for minty NCO shin guntos...which to a Nihonto collector is crazy, but to a militaria guy is a fair deal. Have to separate the enthusiasts to be able to justify the price I think.

 

Brian

[mikesguns]

Well it appeals to me! I have 6 swords now, two NCO's, one Koto and three Showa and like all good addictions, I have to get more! I am going to scramble my finances and shoot at it for $4500.00 or so, if it goes higher, oh well, but it sure was nice to at least SEE something like that. I think that the new place to invest your money is in things like this, that hold their values etc. I just wish I would have started at a younger age. I remember when, as a kid, we used to see hundreds for sale at Army-Navy stores for $25.00.... the good ol days!!!!

[Guest nickn]

$4500 for an oil quenched machine made gunto are you mad?

[mikesguns]

Mad maybe, but as far as rare WWII swords, this one as far as I know, read and seen is top of the heap. It isn't traditionally made, or is it? but being one of a handful of examples known to exist, I'll take a shot at it being a good investment. If i were wrong, the price wouldnt be where it is now, would it be? Mad is paying thousands of dollars for maybe and possibly, this is a definite I think! Anyone else think I'm crazy... (before the auction closes please), give me your input QUICKLY!!! :lol:

[sencho]

Mad is paying thousands of dollars for maybe and possibly, this is a definite I think!

 

"definite I think".....sounds fairly close to "maybe and possibly"!!

 

Whatever floats your boat, but I wouldn't give it the steam off my p...!

 

Go for it.....!!!

[Grey Doffin]

Whether hand made or machine made it won't be great, or even mediocre, art. So, once you have it what do you do with it? How many times are you going to look closely at it? What's there to see?

It may be a good investment but I doubt it. On ebay you'll be paying top dollar, maybe even more than a realistic top price. I think you'd do better with the money in the stock market.

Pride of ownership? Owning one of a few known to exist? If that works for you that's fine. Wouldn't do much for me but so what? It's your money and yours to spend as you wish.

Grey

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

It isn't traditionally made, or is it?

 

No it is not traditionally made, it is an industrial product nothing else.

[mikesguns]

But would it be, according to the books, one of a handful of examples known to exist, a rare piece to own? If you have one of three known examples, barring personal feelings about traditionally made vs. machine made and personal prejudice towards a particular manufacturing style etc, wouldn't that be a special kind of sword? I'm into weapons, plain and simple. this is a weapon, a rare one. The more I research this piece, the more I see that it is also an investment. I understand your position, it is like someone who will own a Corvette, but only a classic one. This is still a Japanese Samurai sword, regardless of the manufacture specs or how it was made. It is a rare sword, like it or not. It is a genuine sword, and machine made, oil tempered etc does not change that. I will say that i am a novice and a little nutty at times, but seeing the values of my firearms go up and up, I can only hope that our (my new hobby) will follow that trend for many years to come. An investment is an investment, whatever it may be an investment in. Sorry to say that this but the sword is worth more than many traditionally made swords. I think that is due to the literature put out on it about its rarity. Minus the tang inscription(which makes it rare) it would be a typical (abiet minty sword). I will still chase it with hope!

[John A Stuart]

There seems to be quite a renewed interest in gun-to lately. It may have to do with fact that the prices for good examples are within the reach of the normal militaria collector and have a recent history that is attractive as well. Collecting swords for their rarity and provenance outside of their artistic merit is fine. They are just outside the purvey of nihonto collectors, with a few exceptions. No harm, no foul. John

[mdiddy]

I don't post often and usually just for translation help, but I have read almost every thread on this board since discovering the site and as a collector of both Gunto and Nihonto, I have a few thoughts on this subject:

 

1. I don't find this sword particularly rare or special. Its only separating factor is a stamp on the tang which indicates origination, but does not highlight any increased functional difference between other oil-quenched, mass-produced Gunto. This would be like saying my Corvette has an extra decal of flames running down the side while yours doesn't and pricing 3x higher based on that, only for aesthetic difference. The 3x price increase could maybe be justified if your Corvette had a different engine, a different shape, etc, but that is not the case. In my mind this is similar to the price difference for the .45 luger in that there are only 2 or 3 of them but there is also the functional difference of the .45 caliber justifying the rarity and price increase (1000x?). That is quite a departure from other lugers, even with segmentation by markings indicating maker, year, unit but with the same basic design. Moreover, while this may be 1 of 3 extant examples with the stamp, every Nihonto is functionally unique (working of the steel, pattern of martensite in the hamon, shaping, etc) that make each one 1 of 1 extant examples.

 

2. I admire the sales pitch and aim to convince in this thread. If I am trying to sell this sword on ebay, then what better way to get free advertising than to come here and start a ruckus. Nevermind posting in the For Sale section, better to ask a question and post pics. I've seen this from a few participants on this board before their items go up on ebay. They ask for an opinion but really it functions as free advertising and even better, advertising where you know there will be involvement from others to promote the item. This thread has ~500 hits. Look at the number of hits on a thread in the For Sale section for any given item. Moreover (this is the good stuff), I sell swords on ebay and it is a game. Multiple times I have had buyers with 1-5 feedback purchase a sword at a very high price but never pay. Again, multiple times this occurs and only with Gunto, not Nihonto. To me this is other sellers working together to impede their competition while also driving the price for these items up tremendously (as compared to Nihonto). The price of Gunto (~600) and oil-quenched showato (~1000-1500) being far above an out of shape shin-shinto (~800). Also, if you look at the bidding histories for these swords you can see patterns of the price being bumped up when no one is bidding - again perhaps by a network of sellers working together and dominating the market. So when I see this sword at $3000-4500, I do not want to say anyone is doing anything shady, but I am extremely skeptical of what is going on behind the scenes. My $.02.

 

3. Isn't there a requirement to post your name after a thread? I don't mean to call out specifically and even though 'MikesGuns' could be obvious, but I don't remember seeing another posting by him before. The ebay seller is 'MacsMilitary' fwiw and his name is Chris.

 

I don't want to hurt any feelings here and think my thoughts are objective. Just highlighting some concerns though. Thanks and hope I too can successfully sell items to whoever buys this sword because they are an ideal customer.

 

Matt

[mikesguns]

What you just implied was not only outrageous but totally false. I came here to discuss a sword that i saw for sale on Ebay. That was what I thought this forum was for. I am a novice buyer and thought i would get an objective opinion from some non-objective collectors. Call me naive but I thought I was doing a good thing but I guess not so. I see other posts asking questions about particular swords and particular auctions and haven't seen that sort of reaction that you gave. I'm not in the business of "hyping" other peoples auctions at all. I do not know the gentleman in question and my name is mike, not Chris. It is obvious that you know who this gentleman is and maybe it is YOU who is trying to sour his auction as being a seller of swords on eBay yourself. You also made implications that I am bidding up his sword? No, i simply stated a fact that i was going to bid on it. If it were a bad sword, I'm sure nobody would bid on it. I'm sure if it were not a rare sword, it wouldn't be listed in the books as one. I can be skeptical all day long about your motivations. I see that you may have given up certain "trade secrets" to how you run your auctions. I am neither a seller on eBay nor am I affiliated with this "chris" character you are speaking of. If that is his name, you must know him personally and to throw his name out there with the implications that he is doing something shady, makes me question your motivations as well. And to speak of what you mentioned, everyone on this forum was new at one time, even you. so to "tie" me in with this auction because I am new is ridiculous. Why don't you go ahead and here, in the forums, tell everyone your seller name so we can watch how you do business? Is it ok for you to accuse (in disguise and in round about ways) a new member of this fine forum of doing underhanded things? I resent that implication kind sir. It isn't fair, it isn't right and I do not have to stand for it.

[mdiddy]

1. This is advertising/hyping whether intentional or not. Wording like 'marvelous' and sales projections like 'as high as $4500' are hype. I am not saying that it is by design, but an add'l 30 people or so are now checking out the auction. As a seller, advertising is a great tool, but if you are a buyer in the market then I would expect that the more people bidding = less likely you are to win so why this post and continued follow-up after receiving objective opinions from collectors uninterested in Showato/Gunto.

 

2. I am skeptical. I am well within my rights of being so and have stuck to the facts and my experience with ebay to raise a flag to the broader group. It doesn't mean I am right or that anyone will believe me, but its my experience and I can share it. If your intentions are above board then you have nothing to worry about and you are in the clear. Place your bid and if you win come back and show it off.

 

3. 'Chris' is what the seller signed to the questions that were at the bottom of the auction.

[Brian]

Mike,

I don't think you should be too hard on Matt. I had wondered the same thing for a while, and we really don't have a foolproof way of preventing what could possibly happen here. I checked email addresses and other things early on just to be sure, and I am sure you understand that someone could do that if they liked.

I think you have amply stated that this is not the case, and I am happy with that, and it is good that you said your say too. Although in your case I don't believe it is the case, you have to understand someone wondering about it.

I hope Matt will also be satisfied with your statement. I think it needed to be asked, and doesn't reflect badly on you. You must admit...you did give it some serious hype :lol:

Things do happen on eBay, and every trick in the book has been tried. Again, perhaps not the case here, but with a free forum like this with fewer rules than the others...we are succeptible.

 

Most people here are Nihonto collectors and don't see these the same way as the militaria guys do. I still don't agree with the price, especially since (as pointed out) it isn't a unique variant, merely a standard sword with property markings. However the market will judge the end result and whether this will be born out by the next one. I have a funny feeling the next one might go for half that. Just my opinion from being a serious gun and militaria collector too.

 

Anyways, I hope everyone will sit back and see things from the other side too, and understand where the other is coming from.

 

Regards,

Brian

[mdiddy]

Agreed - I appreciate Mike's clarification and do not want to offend or deter a new collector's affair with the sword, just raise a flag and ask a question. No hard feelings.

[mikesguns]

Oh, my bad, I did see that he signed it Chris. Call me naive but I didnt think a well publicized auction like that would escape the attention of a bunch of sword collectors. In the end, all that matters is that I would have bid higher than anyone else on the board which I was fully intending to do. It went over my budget so I'm out of the running. Call me a little kid, excited, elated and marveled by these swords and i do tend to get a little excited when I talk about them. If I helped put that sword out of my financial grasp by my post, too bad for me, good for him but I still think that for you to make your opinion in that manner was out of line. I was talking about the sword and if it really was the sword pictured in the book, not if the seller was a shill seller using his connections to up the price of his item. I may be new here but I am not a pushover and although it may sound like i am defending the seller (I actually have to now) i am more defending myself for you including me in a joint conspiracy theory. Apologies accepted and appreciated. I too am sorry for flipping my lid.

[Surfson]

I have enjoyed this thread, even though it has broken down and gotten a bit personal. It is almost like a car enthusiast and a motorcycle enthusiast discussing which is more interesting. I suspect that most who read this thread and post here are interested in Samurai swords. A machine made gunto is not a Samurai sword and is simply a different animal - a Japanese sword no doubt, but not made in the traditional style.

As an investment though, I don't believe that either have been particularly good over the years, and if anything the gunto have outperformed the Samurai swords (i.e. shinshinto and earlier). I have been collecting nearly 25 years and believe that $2000 will buy a Samurai sword now just as good as the one it bought in the mid 80s. On the other hand, the guntos have clearly gone up. It was possible then to buy as many NCO swords you could store for $100 each and shin guntos went for $300. Both have tripled to quintupled since then while the true Samurai swords have barely moved in the intermediate and low price range.

Having said all that, I find the true, hand made, pre-Meiji Samurai swords are much more interesting as a piece of art and exceptional craftsmanship.

PS, I had a bad experience with Macsmilitary

[Grey Doffin]

Well, the sword has sold above $4,700. Wonder how long it will be before we start seeing spurious railway stamps on originally unstamped gunto nakagos.

Glad I don't collect anything that is both valuable and easily faked beyond detection. I'll stick with high quality Nihonto, which are not easily faked.

Grey

[mdiddy]

The seller referenced this thread specifically in the Question/Answers at the bottom of the auction on Jan 16 and NMB in general on Jan 14. Does NMB know that it is being referenced on Ebay in auctions to promote legitimacy?

[Brian]

Well, I guess as much right as we have to discuss his auctions here, he has the right to quote us too :lol:

That doesn't always work in his favour. In this case, I am not scared to say that my own personal opinion is that this is a crazy price for something that will never be worth more than that, and probably far far less.

That price can get you a veyr nice papered katana that is regarded as art even in Japan, and is once of a kind.

But who knows, maybe I am wrong

Wish the buyer all the best with it. Not my money, so I don't get to tell him how to spend it.

I think Grey said it best.

Let's end this one now without the need for a lock? It's already pretty OT for this forum.

 

Brian

[bdgrange]

Think I will dive in here. If I have to talk myself into buying "it only needs this" or I won't find another I usually lose.

When I consider what I have to face with the sword when I want to trade or sell it

I tend to see things a little clearer but that is not easily done at the time,and no fun either.

I was tought that you must represent the piece truthfully and not hide anything

that is known to enhance the value or detract from it. Hard to do.

I recall a tachi selling for $12k a couple of years ago that most thought the sig.

would have to be gemei. Too big a name and in fine condition. It was a fine blade and purchased by a very knowlegeable collector and dealer. It was shoshin mei and he was commended for having made a good deal and on e-bay for Gods sake.

Unfortuately when it was presented to the NBTHK it was rejected for being re-tempered which defied detection. It still sold for what he paid for it at the Tai kai and to a Japanese dealer (who only buys with a buyer already in hand in Japan)

Yasutsugu retempered many works from the great fire of Osaka castle.

Lots of fires in Japan, surprised more do not turn up here. I had one.

However, Militaria commands a different audience as seen at the Militaria shows and they pay lots for what relates to WW2 history. It seems to remain in strong demand and involves

more of the family. Like fathers and sons collecting together and attending together.

Koshirae with bullet damage goes for good money and is interesting to look at by most

anyone especially if known where it was aquired, ie: Iwo or Okinawa, marine unit envolved,

let alone which Japanese units. I like them all and if you like it buy it. It is only a hobby and most will see it as you do and catch your enthusiam. bdgrange

[Hermes]

I would like to agree that WWII swords have there own large group of collectors for decades now and the prices are going up every year it seems, there are exceptions, prices do level off from time to time, but the trend is higher prices, my guess is this will go on until the baby boomer's are gone, hopefully many years from now. hehe

 

I have bought many WWII tanto's (pilot), i have paid as low as $40 many years ago for a good one, but now for the same tanto, i have seen some of the very nice ones sell for up to $1000 believe it or not, with many lesser ones selling in the $500 range, prices leveled off for lesser ones to $300 when the market was saturated on Ebay last year. History costs and it comes with dreams on the battlefield where gunto swords might have been used.

 

I know this makes no sense to many on a Nihonto Forum, but it makes no sense to the military collector paying $10,000 and above for what would be called a real Japanese sword (Nihonto) that was not used in WWII.

[David Flynn]

This sword is made by Fukumoto Kanemune. He is the son of Amahide. He made both gunto and gendai. His gunto have showa and seki stamps. His gendai do not have any stamps. This sword has, as well as the Railway stamp, a showa stamp, inicating it is a gunto. Gunto by Kanemune in this conditon go for about $1800 on ebay. Gendai by kanemune in this condition go for about $2500 on ebay.

So by my reckoning, this sword has cost and extra $3000 for a Railways stamp.

[Ted Tenold]

This sword is a classic example of; "It's only worth as much as the next guy is willing to pay for it". In this case, clearly, the buyer was willing to pay what many here would consider a big premium for the sword which is in my not so humble opinion, firmly catagorized as a World War II Era Collectable Military Sidearm, not a nihonto. But that's the point; this isn't the World War II Era Collectable Military Sidearm Forum. So looking to this forum for a judgment on a sword (uh, sidearm :lol: ) is a bit like discussing apple pie at an orange growers association meeting.

 

As bdgrange pointed out, and what I completely agree with by the way, is that as a former collector of militaria (for well over two decades) I can state from experience, the perameters for which spending decisions are made for items like this don't equate by the formulae we, as Nihonto followers, use to vector the value (or lack thereof). In the militaria world, artistic expression of metallurgical prowess isn't really big on the priority list. The rareity of the item, country of origin, quality of the strike/fabric/ribbon, era of production, number issued, to whom, for what, all make the list at higher levels of interest.

 

That said, I would also add that I have seen quite a few swords by this maker, with showa stamps and without. I had a 27.5 inch with bohi by this maker. It was oil tempered, industrial steel, midareba, and not a stamp on it. Go figure. NO way in hell it was tamahagane, oroshigane, I-made-it-in-my-garage-gane....just industrial steel. So stamps, clearly, are just that, stamps, and by no means a compass to guide your way north.

 

The militaria side of me (at least the residual since I don't collect it anymore) considers that the rareity of the stamp is one thing, but the logo being inclusive on the koshirae would be imperative for a prime and more pure example. I do not see the NCR Logo on any of koshirae parts. So, in the end, this piece won't really stand up to comparison as anything more than perhaps a "variant" of known NCR examples, and that would be a major consideration for how it would fit into other rare gunto I might have in a collection. Though I have no conclusive proof, and it is mearly speculation on my own part, I would personally consider this may have been "stamped into" service with the NCR rather than specifically made for it under contract, based on the lack of NCR logos on the koshirae, and the fact that I have seen other swords by the same maker without any NCR stamp. So, is this gunto worth the closing price? Someone seemed to think so, and hey, more power to them, I hope they are completely stoked with their new addition. Time will only tell what the price will be in the future.

 

I would never pay the kinds of money folks do for things like beanie babies or hubcaps that keep spinning when your car stops, but that's their choice. They like it, they buy it, they live with it. No matter how silly I might think it is, really it's neither bad, nor good, it just is. As Grey and David point out, the premium price of a sword with this kind of stamp on it, could lead to the....uhm....."sudden emergence".... of more examples. In the event of such, those collecting these kinds of things should excercise additional caution.

[Jean]

"It's only worth as much as the next guy is willing to pay for it".

 

You said it all Ted, nothing to add