Ammad Posted July 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 Hey bruce & brian . . Hope ur well and all . I am not sure what to expect from all the references that jaques has provided About ww2 rjt blades . Long story short is it traditionally made or not . What say u bruce , brian . Confusing really . Btw thanx vajo it mean alot . ✌️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 58 minutes ago, Brian said: Jacques, you are embarrassing yourself. It's clear there is far more knowledge on wartimeswords outside of Japan than inside. It's only recently they even started to look at them as decent swords. And throwing out outdated books just makes you look like you are clutching at straws. Give it a rest for goodness' sake! Yes and earth is flat as everybody knows. Bruce I'm rational and you bring no proof all star stamped swords were traditionnaly made . Keep in mind that Japan was at war and losing it and that procedures were not always strictly followed (they had other things to do). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vajo Posted July 11, 2021 Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 Jacques could you show me a not faked star stamp blade which is not gendaito? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammad Posted July 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2021 Found this on thr internet . I think they are machine made . What to say all . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 7 hours ago, Ammad said: Found this on thr internet . I think they are machine made . Ammad, The "contingency model" or Rinji-seishiki (RS) (Japanese for contingency model) was an Army-wide version, not made specifically for the RJT system. So all sorts of blades can be found in RS mounts. It was designed (did we already have this conversation?) to be cheaper than the Type 98 and more durable for field operations. But the fittings could be put on any blade. So, you'll find standard showato, gendaito, and even ancestral blades in them. The standard blades are normally found in the light tan saya with 1 release button, while gendaito are usually found in custom saya with textured lacquer and usually 2 release buttons like yours. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Jacques D. said: I'm rational and you bring no proof all star stamped swords were traditionnaly made . Keep in mind that Japan was at war and losing it and that procedures were not always strictly followed (they had other things to do). Jacques, I have found myself in your shoes a couple of times debating with Nick Komiya about things that didn't fit regulations. In both cases, he was adamant that Army personnel wouldn't violate regulations, but in both cases I had actual swords and/or photos that showed that they did! So, yes, I am a realist (heck, I was in the military myself and know of a guy, who knows of a guy, that had a friend that defied regulations a time or two! HA!) and know that Japanese personnel didn't always follow the regs. HOWEVER, like my cases with Nick, your case hinges on having examples to back your idea. I'll repeat - every blade has to stand on it's own merit, but so far, I haven't seen a star-stamped blade that was an obvious showato. The circumstances support a presumption of innocence, unless proven guilty with some counter-evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 23 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: Jacques, HOWEVER, like my cases with Nick, your case hinges on having examples to back your idea. I'll repeat - every blade has to stand on it's own merit, but so far, I haven't seen a star-stamped blade that was an obvious showato. The circumstances support a presumption of innocence, unless proven guilty with some counter-evidence. Well said Bruce. regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Chris, Bruce, I never said that all star stamped swords were non traditionally made, I said that in the bunch there must be a good bunch that are. By the way, how many of these swords have been recognized by the NBTHK? It's exactly the same as for the gimei, who was stopping a smith from putting a star on a non-traditionally made sword ? Many here should look at what confirmation bias is 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vajo Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 The star stamp was an inspection stamp of the RJT program. The sword was not stamped by the smith. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IJASWORDS Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Jacques, Jacques, Jacques .... The RJT smiths as part of their approval process were issued the scarce tamahagane, and red pine charcoal to ensure their blades conformed to traditionally made Nihonto. The star was added by an inspector, after approval, and raw materials accounted for. Some RJT smiths made swords to special order, that don't have star stamps. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Jacques "Strawman" D. at it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Ok you are free to believe what you want, personally I don't care because I will never buy a sword with any stamp. So far no one has proven me wrong. Send your star stamped to shinza and show me the results but beware, it's possible you never see your sword going back (NBTHK letter joined but it's vague as always) ps look at my signatures they say a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 4 hours ago, IJASWORDS said: The star was added by an inspector, after approval, and raw materials accounted for. Can you provide a reliable source (Japanese) for that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 FYI, I have a RJT star stamped blade by Takashima Kunihide of Fushimi, Kyoto - dated August 1944 and numbered on the back of the tang 98. Here also is a pic of a NBTHK papered sword signed by Takashima Kunihide of Fushimi, Kyoto - dated August 1944 and numbered on the back of the tang 90. The star stamp on mine (see pic) is almost invisible - so lightly stamped. The same applies to the papered blade...I think I can see it in the poor pic ...wouldn't say for certain...look just to right of top peg-hole (same place as on mine). So you have two blades made at the same time, same place, by same smith, with same army stamping numbering system and one is papered. Hope this helps, 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Just starting through my files. Here's a 1942 Chikamitsu (owned by Edward G) with papers: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Don't know what kind of paper this is, but a '44 Katsukiyo, star-stamped 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 A 1943 Norisada, star-stamped 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 Ok but that doesn't mean all star stamped swords are traditionnally made. You are fully in the confirmation bias. https://www.simplypsychology.org/confirmation-bias.html Bruce you don't answer my request. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 9 hours ago, Jacques D. said: Send your star stamped to shinza and show me the results but beware, it's possible you never see your sword going back I’m going to continue this conversation with you Jacques, for a little longer, but I realize it’s probably a waste of my time. You obfuscate and sidestep factual points of the conversation. The reason we posted the swords above with papers was to directly counter your claim that I just quoted. No other reason than that. I’ve made all the points that need to be made. And I will simply standby and wait for you to provide evidence for your idea. So far, it is only an idea, a possibility. For example it is also possible that aliens from outer space made some of the swords with star stamps. I have no evidence to support it, but it is just as possible an idea as yours. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 Quote I’ve made all the points that need to be made. Simply wrong, you have not provided any reliable sources and have made a generalization out of a few examples; this is totally irrational and in full confirmation bias. But don't they say that you can't make a donkey drink if it's not thirsty. Last comment for me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Jacques D. said: Last comment for me. Oh noooo!...Jacques, I was waiting for you to present us with your irrefutable proof that RJT star stamped blades have been rejected by expert panels as "not traditionally made". Oh well, I guess we will just have to wait for you to 'prove' your latest proclamation... that this is the "Last comment for me". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vajo Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 It becomes a flat earth discussion 😆 Jacques i wait for the none traditionel star stamped showa-to. Bruce and George have shown you some proof that your NBTHK Statement from 2013 is wrong. Now show us some examples of your evidence. I have the books of Leon too but they are overwritten with old knowledge from long gone times. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 5 hours ago, vajo said: It becomes a flat earth discussion 😆 Jacques i wait for the none traditionel star stamped showa-to. Bruce and George have shown you some proof that your NBTHK Statement from 2013 is wrong. Now show us some examples of your evidence. I have the books of Leon too but they are overwritten with old knowledge from long gone times. Strawman, that doesn't say you are right in any way and once again you reverse the burden of proof; you argue all star stamped swords are gendaitô you must prove it. I add you should begin by read correctly what others write ! I quote myself (first comment). Quote Maybe traditionally made or not. Star stamp just means the sword is made by a RJT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vajo Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 On 7/10/2021 at 1:39 PM, Jacques D. said: Nothing prevents a RJT from forging a blade with modern steel and keeping the tamahagane for a special order. The punch system was put in place because it was often difficult to see the difference between a traditionally made sword and one that was not. That is what you wrote. Straw men or not. Give us the proof that a star stamped blade is not gendaito. You debate about something that you didn't want to realize. I'm out of this debate. It was discussed over and over again and you came now around the corner by reading it in a book. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Pennington Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted July 13, 2021 Report Share Posted July 13, 2021 Yep guys Brian dont need this back n forth. Time to put to bed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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