Small collection in NZ

[Eve]

Posted across several threads due to size limits....please see my profile for the rest....

 

As promised I'm sharing an overview of our small collection of nihonto. We're a small volunteer run museum in NZ. We don't know a ton about this collection and due to many factors much of the paperwork is missing, so we don't know the stories around how they came to be in the museum. 

 

At some time in the past the blades were all liberally coated in oil, we think maybe linseed oil. We've gently cleaned it off but as you can see it has stained the blades. They are all very much out of polish, which makes it very hard to see the hamon. We've done our best with the photos, to show the elements which would be useful in terms of ID.

 

Full care for all of these nihonto is unfortunately outside the parameters of our current project, both time wise and budget wise. However, if the community on here identifies anything particularly special, we might be able to organise some special treatment. I hope this doesn't sound harsh. It's just that we are cataloguing and caring for an entire museum on a tiny budget. We really love these nihonto which is why we're sharing them here.

 

So, any ID help is greatly appreciated, or just any general info or discussion at all. Every little bit of knowledge helps.

 

Many thanks friends :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eve]

Catalogue number 58

[Eve]

Catalogue number 2376

[Eve]

Catalogue number 2377:

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Eve said:

Catalogue number 2376

Eve,

The "oil" in the pictures appears to be WWII cosmoline.  I'd read @zook's post ON THIS THREAD to see how to remove it.

 

As to 2376, could you please show us the nakago?  The fat seppa, family crest, and combat saya are all typical of an old family sword that was re-fitted for the war.  It could be something nice!

 

And you may already know this, the the fittings are Type 94/98, @PNSSHOGUN can help you distinguish between the 2 with the thickness of the tsuba, WWII Japanese officer gunto.

[quoshy]

I don't want to encourage anything that may cause damage but I suspect there's a second character hidden under the little wooden piece in this picture:

[Grey Doffin]

There well may be a character hidden under the piece of wood but it is very unlikely that it will tell us anything valuable.  At best it will be the name of the man who made the handle core and could be something much less intetresting than that.  Don't remove the piece of wood if damage will occur.

Grey

[Rivkin]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

As to 2376, could you please show us the nakago?  The fat seppa, family crest, and combat saya are all typical of an old family sword that was re-fitted for the war.  It could be something nice!

 

Second that! The rest of swords, sorry to say, not that impressive at the first glance.

[MarcoUdin]

It looks like their are numbers imprinted on the habaki of the shin gunto. Maybe just my eyes but seems so 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Eve,

the TSUBA of No. 2377 is a cast copy and of no collecting value.

[Katsujinken]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Eve,

the TSUBA of No. 2377 is a cast copy and of no collecting value.

Jean, if you have a moment I think it’d be very helpful for Eve (and others) to hear about what clues gave this one away. 

[SteveM]

The small silver design on Cat #2376 is a family crest. This particular crest represents a quince (or mokko in Japanese). It is a relatively common family crest in Japan. The others can tell you more about its appearance here, but putting the family crest on sword fittings was an option offered to some soldiers. And it is possible that the sword itself is an heirloom, and that the sword fittings were special-ordered so that the family sword could be used in the modern military fittings. It isn't unusual to find old family swords that have been repurposed into Japanese Imperial Army swords. As others have mentioned, these old, traditionally-made family swords can be interesting. 

 

The writing on Cat #58 that we can readily see says 柄 (pommel, or tsuka in Japanese). I agree with Grey, any writing under the little piece of wood will not provide any valuable information. 

[ROKUJURO]

Michael,

if you have seen a number of TSUBA, this is easy to spot. I have seen this design and model in several identical items. The lines are a bit rounded, the SEPPA-DAI is slightly bellied and shows crude grinding marks (which you never see on authentic handmade TSUBA). The MEI was cast-in as well and was damaged by the grinding. The only individual additions - copper face and hand of the person and some decoration on the saddle and the horse-bit - are not really carefully made and fixed in pre-cast positions (Sometimes you see similar TSUBA where these inlays have fallen out).

It is a copy of a well-known HIKONE-BORI (SOTEN) TSUBA.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:35 PM, MarcoUdin said:

It looks like their are numbers imprinted on the habaki of the shin gunto. Maybe just my eyes but seems so 

 

Marc,

I believe those are simply the museum catalog numbers of the gunto, written on tape.

[Eve]

On 6/18/2021 at 2:29 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Marc,

I believe those are simply the museum catalog numbers of the gunto, written on tape.

Yes, those are the catalogue numbers which were added some years ago (reversible, is a special museum product). 

Sorry late reply.

[Eve]

On 6/16/2021 at 4:17 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Eve,

The "oil" in the pictures appears to be WWII cosmoline.  I'd read @zook's post ON THIS THREAD to see how to remove it.

 

As to 2376, could you please show us the nakago?  The fat seppa, family crest, and combat saya are all typical of an old family sword that was re-fitted for the war.  It could be something nice!

 

And you may already know this, the the fittings are Type 94/98, @PNSSHOGUN can help you distinguish between the 2 with the thickness of the tsuba, WWII Japanese officer gunto.

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

I'll find the photos of the nagako on 2376 now and then post them. 

 

Our researcher had it as a type 98. 

[Eve]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:02 PM, ROKUJURO said:

Michael,

if you have seen a number of TSUBA, this is easy to spot. I have seen this design and model in several identical items. The lines are a bit rounded, the SEPPA-DAI is slightly bellied and shows crude grinding marks (which you never see on authentic handmade TSUBA). The MEI was cast-in as well and was damaged by the grinding. The only individual additions - copper face and hand of the person and some decoration on the saddle and the horse-bit - are not really carefully made and fixed in pre-cast positions (Sometimes you see similar TSUBA where these inlays have fallen out).

It is a copy of a well-known HIKONE-BORI (SOTEN) TSUBA.

 

Thank you for the info. Could I please ask another question about the same sword - is there some reason the nagako would be snapped off like this one is?

[Eve]

Should I get better photos of this? I can do that today....

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Eve said:

.... Could I please ask another question about the same sword - is there some reason the nagako would be snapped off like this one is?

Eve,

there are a number of reasons. Sometimes a sword had to be shortened for individual purposes, and as you cannot cut off the KISSAKI (= the tip) of a blade without losing the hardened end, blades are shortened from the tang side (NAKAGO, not nagako. I know, there is a lot of new vocabulary to learn!). This was usually done carefully and competently by a swordsmith.

In your case, the NAKAGO is unusually short, which would have caused a lack of stability in the TSUKA (= handle). We do not know the reason for that - a broken longer blader could have been re-purposed to a new life as KO-WAKIZASHI (= short WAKIZASHI).  Also, in the peaceful EDO period, wearing a KATANA and a WAKIZASHI was mandatory for SAMURAI, but there was no control of the efficiency and stability. So sometimes, smaller and lighter blades were worn in long mounts just for more comfort.  

As mentioned above, there are more reasons for shortening a blade, but you will find in most cases that the NAKAGO still has a reasonable size. An expert ought to examine your blade's tang and perhaps find traces of a defect, a damage or how it was shortened. 

[Eve]

Thanks so much for all that info (and sorry for the typos).

 

Hmm, interesting. The nakago looks snapped, to be honest, but of course that's just a guess on my part.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, Eve said:

Should I get better photos of this?

No, these are sufficient.  I cannot tell the age of this very accurately.  To me it doesn't look older than early 1900s, but maybe one of the Nihonto experts can give you an estimate.

[ROKUJURO]

13 hours ago, Eve said:

...... The nakago looks snapped, to be honest, but of course that's just a guess on my part....

Eve,

indeed, that looks as if it was broken off, probably after a superficial cut with a metal saw. As I said above, we never know why this was done, but in this special case you can assume that it was not done by a swordsmith. While shortening after a damage of a blade was often made, it is rare to see damage in a NAKAGO (although that happens).
If you have a look into the TSUKA (perhaps with an endoscope lamp?), you may be able to see if this is a standard TSUKA (for a full-length NAKAGO) or one that was specially made for this shortened NAKAGO.
Most probably this is just a put-together sword for a fast sale to an indiscriminating buyer.    

[Eve]

7 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Eve,

indeed, that looks as if it was broken off, probably after a superficial cut with a metal saw. As I said above, we never know why this was done, but in this special case you can assume that it was not done by a swordsmith. While shortening after a damage of a blade was often made, it is rare to see damage in a NAKAGO (although that happens).
If you have a look into the TSUKA (perhaps with an endoscope lamp?), you may be able to see if this is a standard TSUKA (for a full-length NAKAGO) or one that was specially made for this shortened NAKAGO.
Most probably this is just a put-together sword for a fast sale to an indiscriminating buyer.    

 

Ah you raise a really good point about the tsuka. You can probably see in the photos but it looks like there is another hole under the wrapping. I noticed it when I was taking the photos but I didn't connect the clues. That might also explain why the end of it was loose and came away so easily. Thanks for your help on this!

 

All our nihonto have been in this collection since the 1930s/40s, so it's highly possible they were sold to unknowledgeable buyers at a time when it was quite trendy to own things from elsewhere. WWII also with many kiwis serving in J Force. 

 

It's all a bit of a mystery!