Cosmoline for Showato Blade

[Kaz S]

Hello NMB,

I'm toying with the idea of coating the blade and habaki of one of my wooden handle Type 95s in Cosmoline (https://www.cosmolinedirect.com/cosmoline-rp-342-heavy-spray-military-grade-rust-preventive/) and leaving it for a year (or 2 or 3) to see what becomes of it. I suspect it will be an excellent rust preventative with no downside. Anybody have any contrary opinions?

To head off some potential outrage: This is a Showato Type 95, not  Koto masterpiece or anything. 

[robinalexander]

Hello Kaz, 

 

Not outraged but I just dont know why you want to do that.  Are you going to bury it in the backyard because you have to go away fair a couple of years ?

 

Plenty of info on NMB site re  'normal' blade rust protection/prevention measures that will still allow you enjoy your sword over that 2 or 3 year period.

 

Out of interest,  could you post a picture or two of your "wooden handle Type 95"  "Showato" 

 

Rob

[Brian]

Cosmoline sucks. Absolutely no benefit over most modern oils, and it is terrible stuff to remove.

[ChrisW]

Bought my M44 Mosin covered in that stuff, took ages to remove, was awful.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Cosmoline will stain a blade from memory.

[Kaz S]

2 hours ago, robinalexander said:

Hello Kaz, 

 

Not outraged but I just dont know why you want to do that.  Are you going to bury it in the backyard because you have to go away fair a couple of years ?

 

Plenty of info on NMB site re  'normal' blade rust protection/prevention measures that will still allow you enjoy your sword over that 2 or 3 year period.

 

Out of interest,  could you post a picture or two of your "wooden handle Type 95"  "Showato" 

 

Rob

The Type 95 is entirely unremarkable. Not sure why you have referred to it in quotation marks either.

 

I have choji oil or Renaissance Wax applied to my other gunto.

 

53 minutes ago, Brian said:

Cosmoline sucks. Absolutely no benefit over most modern oils, and it is terrible stuff to remove.

I'd reckon there are benefits:

-apply it once and it will protect for many years

-you can handle the item without worrying about removing the protective layer

 

46 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Cosmoline will stain a blade from memory.

This is the thing I would be worried about. I've seen this mentioned before but never seen proof of it. Respectfully, does proof exist or is this ancient lore that has crossed over from feeling to fact? 

[PNSSHOGUN]

I have seen a few listings where the sword was kept in cosmoline and stained it, I don't have them saved but it was quite obvious.

[Kaz S]

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

I have seen a few listings where the sword was kept in cosmoline and stained it, I don't have them saved but it was quite obvious.

That is a fatal problem. 

 

Does anyone have a very cheap blade they would like to sell me, in the name of science? Broken, cracked, corroded, all of the above

[Bruce Pennington]

If you are just an Inquiring Mind and want to run your own experiment, I'd follow your last idea and get a junker.  But if you simply are curious as to the effects of years of cosmoline, I'd ask these guys who had gunto coated with it:

 

Robinalexander on this thread.

 

Mad Dog on this thread

 

Davidequis on this thread

 

MarcoUdin on this thread

 

Waljamada and Zook on this thread.

 

There are more.  These are just from the first page of 3 pages in a "cosmoline" search of NMB.

 

[Shugyosha]

3 hours ago, Kaz S said:

That is a fatal problem. 

 

Does anyone have a very cheap blade they would like to sell me, in the name of science? Broken, cracked, corroded, all of the above

Wouldn’t a piece of carbon steel be cheaper? You could experiment on that and the results would be applicable to Japanese swords. 

[Kaz S]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

If you are just an Inquiring Mind and want to run your own experiment, I'd follow your last idea and get a junker.  But if you simply are curious as to the effects of years of cosmoline, I'd ask these guys who had gunto coated with it:

 

Robinalexander on this thread.

 

Mad Dog on this thread

 

Davidequis on this thread

 

MarcoUdin on this thread

 

Waljamada and Zook on this thread.

 

There are more.  These are just from the first page of 3 pages in a "cosmoline" search of NMB.

 

Thank you. I've reached out to several of those guys. I'm still very curious to see for myself though. I'm on a quest for a junk blade.

 

5 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Wouldn’t a piece of carbon steel be cheaper? You could experiment on that and the results would be applicable to Japanese swords. 

Absolutely it would be cheaper but nothing beats using the real thing.

[Brian]

To some of us, everything beats using the real thing. 

[Kaz S]

3 owners of nihonto that they received in cosmoline have replied to my PMs. Their responses are summarized as follows:

 

#1 - Reports that cosmoline can slightly yellow a blade and can dry out, causing the blade to get stuck in the scabbard. 

 

#2 - Reports that the cosmoline had no staining effect on the blade.

 

#3 - Reports that the cosmoline was on the blade for 65 years and had no staining effect. Provided pictures showing the blade covered in cosmoline, then with the cosmoline removed.

 

Is it possible that the yellowing or staining effect is a result of incomplete removals?

[zook]

Hey Kaz - I responded to your note to me,   I call cosmoline the "Devil's Vasoline" .... there are so many better products out there in today's modern age.    I have never applied it to anything.   

 As stated,  -  if you just want to experiment , I totally agree with Bruce and others and get a junker.  Better yet,  ask Samurai Monkey for one of his junker swords on Ebay (lol).     Seriously though -   I have worked with Cosmoline A LOT on surplus weapons because I have had to remove it from about 20 plus surplus firearms, and I have removed it from two Type 95s.   Upon removing, I have observed NO damage to the rifles, not even to the bluing ...when I removed the cosmoline, and I find the safest way to remove it is with HEAT.     The type 95s I removed it from where already in rough shape.   I my opinion,  you can't remove cosmoline with heat on a 95 sword with aluminum handle (that has paint remaining) ...you will further degrade the handle if you do.  It's just too risky.       Dan     

[Kaz S]

13 minutes ago, zook said:

Hey Kaz - I responded to your note to me,   I call cosmoline the "Devil's Vasoline" .... there are so many better products out there in today's modern age.    I have never applied it to anything.   

 As stated,  -  if you just want to experiment , I totally agree with Bruce and others and get a junker.  Better yet,  ask Samurai Monkey for one of his junker swords on Ebay (lol).     Seriously though -   I have worked with Cosmoline A LOT on surplus weapons because I have had to remove it from about 20 plus surplus firearms, and I have removed it from two Type 95s.   Upon removing, I have observed NO damage to the rifles, not even to the bluing ...when I removed the cosmoline, and I find the safest way to remove it is with HEAT.     The type 95s I removed it from where already in rough shape.   I my opinion,  you can't remove cosmoline with heat on a 95 sword with aluminum handle (that has paint remaining) ...you will further degrade the handle if you do.  It's just too risky.       Dan     

Thank you for your response Dan! I would love a junker blade. Unfortunately the eBay Monkey is charging a premium for his junk 

 

In the mean time I've ordered carbon steel rods that will be stand-ins.

[Grey Doffin]

Whether or not the cosmoline stains the blade, it sure does foul the inside of a saya, and that can never be cleaned.

Grey

[Brian]

I am stumped at any logic why this would even be of interest. There are so many better options and Cosmoline would be at the very bottom of the list. Why do we need to know? Next.....studies on whether animal fat protects Nihonto, or whether Canola seed cooking oil is useful for this? Why?

[zook]

Totally agree Brian, and Grey makes a superb point on the saya!  

To clarify a point I was making above on removal of cosmoline from surplus weapons,  I have found the safest and most thorough way to get it fully removed is heat, but specifically extremely hot (boiling) water in a large pot.   I remove the wooden stock from rifles, and I place all parts in boiling water for a few minutes, and one can see the cosmoline simply melt off and fall into the water (and stink up your residence to high heavens!!)... It is very odd looking to put a large cauldron size pot on the stove, and have a long rifle barrel dangling half way out of the pot, but since metal conveys heat, it just works, and it's the best way to get the cosmoline out of the "nooks and crannies" of the finer metal parts (Note: machine made gun parts, and NOT polished blades of any type construction .  

HOWEVER, boiling the parts, wiping off access, drying each part, re-assembling and properly oiling a rifle ... one can end  up with a nice metal finish but still a ROUGH LOOKING STOCK where the cosmoline has spill over into the wood and permanently penetrated.   There is nothing that can be done about that.     

 

Machine made Swords -  I've learned long ago from more experienced collectors on here (Shamsy, Bruce, etc ) that on a Type 95 NCO  (for example) there is no need to remove the saya and if the screw looks tampered with ...  it's something that is worth noticing with caution as a collector.     If I had an aluminum saya NCO sword with original paint remaining on it and cosmoline on the blade, then in my opinion-  the only recourse is to remove the cosmoline by hand from the blade (much wiping and a box of rags) and I would totally leave the saya alone.  
I would do the same for later issue (wooden says) because I personally don't want to impact patinas nor run into challenges of re-assembly issues to get it back to the original state (as some late - war Type 95s were assembled crudely).  

 

[Kaz S]

16 hours ago, Grey Doffin said:

Whether or not the cosmoline stains the blade, it sure does foul the inside of a saya, and that can never be cleaned.

Grey

That is absolutely true and is probably another nail in the coffin.

 

11 hours ago, Brian said:

I am stumped at any logic why this would even be of interest. There are so many better options and Cosmoline would be at the very bottom of the list. Why do we need to know? Next.....studies on whether animal fat protects Nihonto, or whether Canola seed cooking oil is useful for this? Why?

I'm interested in testing the boundaries of what is "true". There are so many things that are true until they are not. When the experiment is finished, I can say "This is -confirmed- true because here are the pictures and here is the evidence."

 

So far I have 3 first hand accounts of Cosmoline on Gunto blades: 2 say it did not stain and 1 says it does. I was hoping for unanimity.

 

I absolutely would carry out a study of animal fat on Nihonto if I could get an appropriate, unsalvagable piece. Or cooking oil. Or anything. What if it's better? 

 

For what it's worth I'm not currently putting Cosmoline on any of my blades. They're all safely Choji oiled in the recommended way. 

[robinalexander]

Hey Kaz, like I said first up..I just dont know why you want to do that.

 

But if you really want to play/experiment then buy something like this and go for your life! But give the real blades (whole blades in any condition regardless) a miss.

Rob

 

[Mark S.]

On 6/4/2021 at 7:30 AM, zook said:

 

To clarify a point I was making above on removal of cosmoline from surplus weapons,  I have found the safest and most thorough way to get it fully removed is heat,

 

Have also heard of wrapping firearm in a ton of paper towels or other absorbent material and placing in a black plastic bag and placing on the dashboard of a car out in full sun in the middle of summer.  Never tried it…

[Stephen]

#1 post should have been removed from the gitgo. What a wast of space and time.

All the mods must be in the retirement home n Boss not far off with his memory typing.

 

[Kaz S]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

#1 post should have been removed from the gitgo. What a wast of space and time.

All the mods must be in the retirement home n Boss not far off with his memory typing.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think seeking knowledge is ever a waste of time.

[Kaz S]

Efficacy of Rust Preventatives on Carbon Steel

5x1 foot carbon steel rods will be left in an uncontrolled environment for a period of time (my garage, until I decide it's done). 4 will be treated with different rust preventatives and 1 will be left untreated. Before applying the rust preventative, all rods will be cleaned with Ballistol, scrubbed lightly to remove any pre-existing corrosion, and then cleaned again with mineral spirits to remove any remaining contaminants. Rods will be held vertically by a plank of wood. 

The specifications of the steel rods are as follows:
Unpolished carbon steel 3/8"x1', 1018 alloy

The rust preventatives to be used are as follows:

CosmolineDirect RP-342 (https://www.cosmolinedirect.com/cosmoline-rp-342-heavy-spray-military-grade-rust-preventive/)
Ballistol Universal Oil (https://ballistol.com/)
Birchwood Casey RIG (https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/products/rig-universal-gun-grease-12-oz-jar.html)
Choji Oil (Generic Amazon brand)

All compounds will be applied as per the manufacturers instructions. 

At arbitrary intervals (whenever I decide to look), the rods will be examined for the appearance of rust/corrosion. At the conclusion of the experiment, all rods will be cleaned on their preservatives and compared for colour change and corrosion formation.

[Bruce Pennington]

I like it Kaz!  Are your a science researcher by trade, or just a seeker by nature? 

[Stephen]

JMPOV Kas, that and .50 will get you...ah i guess nothing now days.

 

[Brian]

Moved this, since is has nothing to do with military specifically.
As for the goal, i think it's pointless. But if you want to mess around with oils, feel free. Stuff like this has been done 1000 times already. And frankly, there is little difference between any decent oils. A blade treated properly with regular mineral oil, DOES NOT RUST. So are we trying to find something that is more than 100% effective? What's the goal and what problem are we trying to solve?