Submitting blade to NBTHK

[Jussi Ekholm]

I do believe the gap between Tokubetsu Hozon to Jūyō is exponentially more difficult than achieving Tokubetsu Hozon from Hozon. A while back I did run some potential statistics about the numbers of swords that had passed any given level by modern NBTHK classification. While they are not 100% correct it can give some idea about the numbers of swords with each level of classification.

 

Can you post details on the signed Kaneuji? The potential Shizu naginata you posted a picture of, is it a naginata or a naginata-naoshi?

 

I would love to hear more details about the Uda tachi.

[NewB]

Always appreciate everyone's concerns/suggestions/opinions even criticisms. I am done climbing ladders and opening safes for awhile now so that should be sufficient enough to begin with.. these are the ones that give me confidence to pursue a high grade. From what I understand signed Shizu are not common and mine has once been papered. So signed Shizu, Yamato Shizu Naginata (papered) and Shodai Tadayoshi (papered) would be a good package for NBTHK in October☺

 

 

John

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is the info on signed Kaneuji pieces that I am aware of so far.

 

with 兼氏

2x Jūyō Bunkazai tachi - One of these was at Jūyō 12 session but afterwards it has been elevated as Jūyō Bunkazai

3x Jūyō Bijutsuhin tachi

1x Gifu Prefecture Bunkazai tachi

1x Jūyō Bunkazai katana

1x katana at Itsukushima Jinja (Muromachi period)

1x Jūyō Bunkazai tanto

1x Jūyō Bijutsuhin tanto

1x Jūyō tanto (2nd generation)

1x Nonpapered tanto with well reknown ownership history and provenance in Private collection in Japan

1x Tanto with (so far unknown provenance to me) published by NBTHK

 

With 包氏

1x Jūyō wakizashi (dated)

3x Jūyō tanto - one has went to Tokubetsu Jūyō

[Katsujinken]

So John, let’s see that Kaneuji signature! 

 

It’s still not clear to me if you’re referring to Shizu Saburo Kaneuji or one of the later Kaneuji. 

[NewB]

Kaneyuki (there were some photos posted awhile back),  not Kaneuji. Autocorrect can stir up some serious problems 

 

 

John

[Katsujinken]

  On 6/4/2021 at 9:28 PM, Darkcon said:

Kaneyuki (there were some photos posted awhile back),  not Kaneuji. Autocorrect can stir up some serious problems 

 

 

John

Expand  

OH! My apologies.

 

So both of the koto Kaneyuki in Fujishiro (Eikyo and Shitoku) are chujo smiths. Do you have a feeling about which one may be yours? Or perhaps another one? If it’s Shinto (I can’t recall the photo), I’m afraid the odds are against you.

 

Regardless chujo and Juyo don’t often go hand in hand. Not trying to rain on your parade!

[NewB]

  On 6/4/2021 at 9:45 PM, Katsujinken said:

OH! My apologies.

 

So both of the koto Kaneyuki in Fujishiro (Eikyo and Shitoku) are chujo smiths. Do you have a feeling about which one may be yours? Or perhaps another one? If it’s Shinto (I can’t recall the photo), I’m afraid the odds are against you.

 

Regardless chujo and Juyo don’t often go hand in hand. Not trying to rain on your parade!

Expand  

 

 

I appreciate your opinion

 

We are talking Nara Goro here. It looks like Shitoku but may be earlier.. As once Jussi mentioned Kaneyuki and Chogi are extremely underappreciated. To me, signed shizu is the main point. Then it is in great health with 76.2 cm nagasa..

 

 

John

[Ray Singer]

Just getting back from overseas and seeing this thread now. With the swords being described, Kaneyuki, Naoe Shizu, shodai Tadayoshi special ordered by the Nabeshima daimyo, etc this sounds much like a collection we discussed here earlier. My apologies if I am mistaken.

 

 

[NewB]

  On 6/4/2021 at 10:54 PM, Ray Singer said:

Just getting back from overseas and seeing this thread now. With the swords being described, Kaneyuki, Naoe Shizu, shodai Tadayoshi special ordered by the Nabeshima daimyo, lost kanteisho, etc isn't this the same collection that we discussed here earlier? My apologies if I am mistaken.

 

 

Expand  

 

Ha. Probably the previous owner tried to figure it out, tiny part of the massive list though. He was Not so successful it appears 🤣

This fella has got MANY! Way more than me...

 

 

 

John

 

[Tom Darling]

  On 6/4/2021 at 6:58 PM, Darkcon said:

One of the Shizu Naginata. How about that hada...       You really have something here,  right as rain.   I have a good idea,  if your having difficulty in taking quality pic. of your swords,  post instead pic. of the papers.  Tadayoshi and Shizu  Naginata,  would be just fine.   

Expand  

 

  7 hours ago, Darkcon said:

 

 

John

Expand  

 

[NewB]

Thank you for your kind words. Old pictures.. who knows where the papers are.. I have them, that's for sure 

 

 

 

 

John

[Darcy]

I don't usually handle submissions, unless it's something special that I'm interested in seeing how it works out (i.e. you found a Kiyomaro) or it's something I sold and the owner is looking to upgrade. I do those for no charge. Otherwise I point people to Bob Benson or someone else specializing in it, as it's a lot of paperwork and have to constantly be touching base with the customer and with the handler in Japan... so usually someone doing agent work like that needs to do it in bulk in order to justify the time.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I might have by mistake (or used an incorrect English word) said something like that about Chōgi but I do think he is/has always been regarded very highly in Japan.

 

I do however stand by my personal view that Kaneyuki (金行) is somewhat underappreciated but I do think it can also be due to there being no surviving signed blades by him remaining. Unfortunately I don't think I have ever seen a signature of Nara Gorō Kaneyuki (兼行) For his assumed father (or older brother) Kanetomo (兼友) I know few signed pieces but incredibly rare too. In general I feel signed Nanbokuchō period Mino stuff is very rare.

 

I think sometimes when using only English for smiths it can be bit difficult to follow up. For example when I just write Kaneyuki, in general I would be referring to this (金行) Nanbokuchō Mino smith. Still I believe at least following different Kaneyuki smiths or lineages worked in Mino before Edo period 兼行, 兼幸, 兼之, 包行. At the moment I do not have a book specialized in Mino smiths so there could have been even some more Kaneyuki smiths.

[NewB]

  On 6/5/2021 at 7:38 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

I might have by mistake (or used an incorrect English word) said something like that about Chōgi but I do think he is/has always been regarded very highly in Japan.

 

I do however stand by my personal view that Kaneyuki (金行) is somewhat underappreciated but I do think it can also be due to there being no surviving signed blades by him remaining. Unfortunately I don't think I have ever seen a signature of Nara Gorō Kaneyuki (兼行) For his assumed father (or older brother) Kanetomo (兼友) I know few signed pieces but incredibly rare too. In general I feel signed Nanbokuchō period Mino stuff is very rare.

 

I think sometimes when using only English for smiths it can be bit difficult to follow up. For example when I just write Kaneyuki, in general I would be referring to this (金行) Nanbokuchō Mino smith. Still I believe at least following different Kaneyuki smiths or lineages worked in Mino before Edo period 兼行, 兼幸, 兼之, 包行. At the moment I do not have a book specialized in Mino smiths so there could have been even some more Kaneyuki smiths.

Expand  

 

Well, this one is my main hope for high result so to speak. It is still huge (~77cm), not too much suriage, signed with all traits of the early Mino school. August will determine whether that is true or just intellectual meandering on my part. I hope I pass but my gut tells me, I'll be happy. 

 

I have 9 that will be listed in orderly fashion soon, most not from the discussions and the list Ray Singer retrieved from the past owner's discussions.

 

I truly hope some forumite pulls the trigger so I can submit my fair share to the board's budget.

 

Jussi do you believe this is matsukawa hada, it is attributed to Yamato Shizu?!

 

 

 

 

Thank you

 

 

John

[Ray Singer]

  On 6/3/2021 at 2:59 AM, chrstphr said:

 

Chris

 

Expand  

 

Second from the left is the same katana that sold at Bonhams here (look closely at the corrosion/blemishes on the nakago). I am guessing that the two blades on the left are this same daisho.

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20503/lot/1189/?category=list&length=208&page=1

[NewB]

  On 6/5/2021 at 8:19 PM, Ray Singer said:

 

Second from the left is the same katana that sold at Bonhams here (look closely at the corrosion/blemishes on the nakago). I am guessing that the two blades on the left are this same daisho.

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20503/lot/1189/?category=list&length=208&page=1

Expand  

That would be them. Off topic, they are available for sale also

 

 

John

[Tom Darling]

  On 6/5/2021 at 8:30 PM, Darkcon said:

That would be them. Off topic, they are available for sale also

 

 

John

Expand  

 

Now we are getting somewhere,  we made progress. 

[NewB]

Not sure what that means

 

all of them are available for the right pocket. One has to think, what are the odds of bumping into such quality 🤔

 

 

John 

[Vermithrax16]

  On 6/6/2021 at 5:02 AM, Darkcon said:

Not sure what that means

 

all of them are available for the right pocket. One has to think, what are the odds of bumping into such quality 🤔

 

 

John 

Expand  

A friend of mine collects this school. He has bumped into quite a few of this smith works of the same and higher quality, and the bump didn't cost 20-40k.

[NewB]

My numbers are Based on recent sales.

 

One of my buddies bumped onto a heavy collection that cost him chump change as well, that however doesn't mean they aren't worth the money. Plus aoi museum gives me a good idea of a price range so I'll just stick to that. If not, there are lots of auction houses that can assist with the sale of the articles we have approved to let go. And if not, then we'll do our best to keep fresh choji oil on them until they find their next proprietors so we are not really worried that much. The greatest part is - most are near mint, papered and healthy. We are thankful for that - period

 

 

John 

[Vermithrax16]

Who is "we"?

[Tom Darling]

  On 6/3/2021 at 12:42 AM, Darkcon said:

I appreciate that. I am at the already papered (not by NBTHK) so I somewhat know what I am holding in my hands. Failure to get Juyo wouldn't be a disappointment. At the end not many signed Shizu blades exist these days.  .. well the ones in the spotlight that is.

 

 

Also I am not here to compete, I will get what I want eventually. Thought I can do it via the best channels hence my questions in my initial post.

Expand  

 

  On 6/2/2021 at 7:42 PM, Darkcon said:

 

John,  should you resubmit (update) your swords to the NBTHK  their papers on unsigned swords can be attributed to different kaji.  If they match the papers you have, that would be cherry on the cake, and easier to realize your price. Good Luck. One more tidbit, if you consign them to a leading auction house, they would prefer NBTHK papers.

 

Cheers

 

 

John

Expand  

 

[NewB]

  On 6/6/2021 at 8:36 PM, Tom Darling said:

 

 

Expand  

 

Thank you. I only hope they go in good hands. At the end I learned quite a bit about the process and headaches involved, fluctuations of prices, NTHK VS NBTHK and many other details about the forum and its members. Not bad for the short period of being a tiny part of it all. 

 

I appreciate very much.

 

 

P.S. Apparently of have been through the hands of Bonhams. I wonder whether they kept photos of the certificates. Would they be able to release?

Last, would NBTHK would be able to find a certificate based on the number and description of the blade. They can, that I know. I wonder whether they'd be willing to 😬

 

 

John

[NewB]

  On 6/6/2021 at 8:28 PM, Vermithrax16 said:

Who is "we"?

Expand  

Me and my imaginary friends

 

😛

 

 

 

John

[Gakusee]

So, John, on your question about NBTHK certificates and what the organisation can do: they can reissue (once only) only lost Juyo certificates. TH and below do not get reissued if lost/misplaced, but only if they are damaged or contain errors. 
 

However, if you have the certificate number, its issue date and details about the blade, you can call them and enquire about confirming that such a certificate had been issued indeed. 

Details of all of this here: https://www.touken.or.jp/shinsa/syousyo.html

 

Out of curiosity, what precisely are you selling? You are talking about hundreds of blades but then mention around 10, and of these ten you focus on a few to submit to Juyo (good luck by the way). 

[NewB]

  On 6/6/2021 at 10:28 PM, Gakusee said:

So, John, on your question about NBTHK certificates and what the organisation can do: they can reissue (once only) only lost Juyo certificates. TH and below do not get reissued if lost/misplaced, but only if they are damaged or contain errors. 
 

However, if you have the certificate number, its issue date and details about the blade, you can call them and enquire about confirming that such a certificate had been issued indeed. 

Details of all of this here: https://www.touken.or.jp/shinsa/syousyo.html

 

Out of curiosity, what precisely are you selling? You are talking about hundreds of blades but then mention around 10, and of these ten you focus on a few to submit to Juyo (good luck by the way). 

Expand  

I appreciate that. 10 is what we have decided to let go. 

 

 

Photos will be available but as Ray Singer pointed out (per Bonhams) we dont really need them - serious results

 

 

John

[Jacques]

  On 6/5/2021 at 7:38 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

At the moment I do not have a book specialized in Mino smiths so there could have been even some more Kaneyuki smiths. At the moment I do not have a book specialized in Mino smiths so there could have been even some more Kaneyuki smiths.

Expand  

 

 

Yes they are.

[Jussi Ekholm]

For the naginata I feel I am not qualified to identify details of it. Is it a full length naginata or a shortened one? I would think there is a possibility that portion of hada is just standing out and picture enhances it. You can see some standing out hada in this remarkable Yamato naginata attributed to Senjuin. For me this could be a single item collection, I know I've had friendly banter on this with other collectors, I can overlook the condition. https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords/JT988980.htm

[NewB]

  On 6/7/2021 at 1:43 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

For the naginata I feel I am not qualified to identify details of it. Is it a full length naginata or a shortened one? I would think there is a possibility that portion of hada is just standing out and picture enhances it. You can see some standing out hada in this remarkable Yamato naginata attributed to Senjuin. For me this could be a single item collection, I know I've had friendly banter on this with other collectors, I can overlook the condition. https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords/JT988980.htm

Expand  

 

Thank you , great example. I am sure ours has been shortened however the hada is very very different than the Senjuin example. Again, I am new to this and I am sure most of the knowledgeable folks here already know what it is .. as what Tom mentioned, if the papers get confirmed as school or same lineage it'd be the cherry on top of the cake

 

 

John