daisho koshirae?

[Peter Bleed]

I’d like to see what this august community has to say about daisho koshirae – having just acquired something that might be described in those terms.

Please see the attached image.

Notice that I didn’t say anything about “swords” since neither of these items hold a blade. They’re ‘fittings.’ One has a wood tsunagi and the other has a recent “blade” that is serving as a tsunagi. They each have a nice old iron tsuba but they are dissimilar. Aside from that, however, the fittings are essentially similar handachi koshirae. Black urushi saya and blackened iron kodogu that are overall of “good” quality. I find no signatures or other markings, but everything looks “old”. Indeed, I have the feeling that they might be at least Meiji era. They were presented with an “old” (Edo period?) katana kake. Overall, these things look like ‘old’ swords that were re-purposed in early post-War times as decorative items. They are quite presentable and certainly not “new” decorators.

Okay, here’s my question. I wonder how common similarly mounted daisho really were? Who had to wear a similarly mounted long and short swords? Clearly a lot of guys did NOT need or carry matching sets. I could easily see the rig I just acquired as something like a formal outfit that some low-level functionary had to have in the closet for occasional use.

In closing, let me also say that I am in the market for a “nice” (but not necessarily special) daisho pair of iron tsuba.

Peter

[Bugyotsuji]

If we are permitted a general comment here, then I like these, not ceremonial, just iron fittings and functional. I see you have them ready for combat. Hope you find that pair of tsuba!

 

PS Nice desk/table too, with unusual brass bosses. 

[16k]

I like them too. I tend to prefer sober mountings to elaborate ones too. They look more like samurai swords than those ornate swords used by samurai turned civil servants.

 

Good eye, Piers, if you hadn’t pointed it out, I would have missed the swords position.

[Peter Bleed]

Thank you Piers and JP! I am not sorry to have discovered and acquired this set. I also feel like I have learned some things by looking at them. They are a little odd but worthy of appreciation. Were they in Japan, I just bet that worthy blades would be found for them so that they would once again become a "daisho." I have virtually NO Japanese material out since I just can't see it as - well - "decorative." The "table top" that Piers observed is in fact the top of a nice old "German" chest that carried the wealth and wherewithal of a frontier family that moved to Nebraska in the 1870s.

Peter

[Surfson]

I have three sets of daisho koshirae, one of which was owned by Mr. Compton.  Two of the three have no blades in them.  The one with blades has been discussed before due to the guribori fittings (scroll down on this thread).

 

 

[Surfson]

I don't think that they were that uncommon, based on the number of daisho tsuba sets that are out there.  Granted, many are married, but many are clearly pairs.  

[Fuuten]

  On 5/17/2021 at 12:31 AM, Peter Bleed said:

Okay, here’s my question. I wonder how common similarly mounted daisho really were? Who had to wear a similarly mounted long and short swords? Clearly a lot of guys did NOT need or carry matching sets.

 

Expand  

Weren't samurai class in general expected to wear 2 swords? As in mounted together, assuming in a identifiable as such set of fittings. I can't recall specially where I read this but "many" (probably the ones with higher stipends), had multiple sets of fittings some for different occasions. But the practice  is supposed to started during the Edo period.

 

Just a thought but it should be an exorbitant number compared to the few koshirae that are left from Muromachi and earlier.

 

That's just those who were supposed to. Did merchants sneak by with daisho sets of lesser length to the point where it was not breaking any laws? Maybe a wakizashi with a tanto? There were some mighty well-to-do merchants around back then. Maybe it was largely a fashion thing? I think these days daisho are thé archetypal image of the bushi.

[Surfson]

There are some wakizashi plus tanto daisho that turn up, but hard to say if they were worn by merchants.  I have read on a board that merchants were not allowed to carry two swords.

[Peter Bleed]

My adventures with this pair of fittings continues. I have recently learned that photographing mounted tsubas is challenging? Do you see a daisho here?

Peter

[ROKUJURO]

Peter,

these TSUBA look good as DAISHO to me. Theme is often seen in KACHUSHI TSUBA, but these may be a bit younger.

It should not be too difficult to separate them from their respective TSUNAGI to photograph them, I think.

[Fuuten]

They look like a pair to me as well. A nice rustic image. I like the set.

 

And thanks Robert, I wasnt really aware of laws prohibiting 2 swords for merchants but it would make sense. Kind of curious if there is a place online about the laws around this time, will give it a go when I have the time.

[Fuuten]

I can't edit the post above anymore so new post.

 

Under a section of the 'Heimin', artisans and merchants I found the following from which it stands to reason they surely were not allowed to mess about around with more than one sword. It is mentioned when a number of factions and organisations emerged amongst merchants that gained some power. Considering iron fans were dealt with surely something like a second dagger or wakizashi was not even worth considering.

 

The text is from a  book titled 'secrets of the samurai' by Oscar Ratti & Adele Westbrook, which I got for my birthday last year (lovely thrift shop book). I never heard of it before so being a little skeptical at first I started reading it. Turns out, it's a surprisingly good and interesting read.