War axes?

[hybridfiat]

Now I realise that axes are not strictly nihonto but Ive no-one else to ask. Did the Japanese make them? Did they use the same techniques as swords if they did.

I saw the wonderful display of presentation edged weapons given to Queen Victoria by the Japanese emperor and each and every blade had the same hamon right down to the arrowheads. But I cant recal any axes.

Im just curious.

[pcfarrar]

Check out the Kaifu school they were famous for making sharp axes.

[hybridfiat]

Just googled Kaifu school but got no hits. I take it Ill need to source a very specialised book on the subject.

Hmmmm.... not worth it I think

[IanB]

Steve, There is an illustration of a Japanese axe, called O-no, in Stone's Glossary... on p. 475. He states it was used by yamabushi and is about 6' long. Curiously it is fitted with a scabbard or rather edge cover of semi-circular shape. No doubt individuals did carry large axes in battle but I suspect they were one-offs.

Ian B.

[pcfarrar]

If you watch some of the TV NHK Taiga dramas set in the Sengoku period they sometimes depict samurai in battle with axes. From memory I think it was the Nobunaga one.

 

The information about the Kaifu school and axes is in the Nihonto Koza.

[hybridfiat]

It just seems strage that despite the wealth of visual information on the net and in books about the samurai weapons scarcely a pic or a peep about axes. Yet they have always featured prominantly in fighting around the world.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

It just seems strage that despite the wealth of visual information on the net and in books about the samurai weapons scarcely a pic or a peep about axes. Yet they have always featured prominantly in fighting around the world.

 

If you find this strange try to find pics of Japanese flails, maces, slings or crossbows/arbalesters (these are easier...) .

Widely used all around the world, used in Japan too, but felt in oblivion.

 

Cultural preferences, I think. Samurai didn't love these weapons for various reasons, hence no interest from painters so they (almost) haven't passed to history. No King David killing Goliath (with a sling...) in Japan.

[IanB]

Carlo, See my article on Japanese crossbows in 'Royal Armouries Yearbook' Vol 3 p.159. The Armouries were very fortunate in buying one for the collection during the early 1990's. As far as I could discover it is one of only four known. There are two in the Tokugawa Art Museum in Nagoya (see Military Accessories of a Daimyo House p.58) and a third in the Metropolitan Museum, New York that was previously in the collection of George Cameron Stone and illustrated in his Glossary on page 611. All four are associated with the Tokugawa, that in Leeds having gold lacquered Tokugawa kamon on the stock. Both the New York example and that in the Royal Armouries have their bows made of baleen. The New York example, signed '...Kunitaka' made of a single slat, that in Leeds with a double slat to increase the power. The Nagoya ones look like baleen bows, but are lacquered and bound with rattan making it difficult to determine. These two bows have removable upper 'barrels' so that they could shoot either arrows or pellets. The Leeds one has a built in quiver under the stock for 4 arrows of which three survive. My guess is that they were for personal protection indoors or just amusing novelties.

Ian Bottomley

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

You can find this kind of axe combined with a Yari, I once saw one at Zenon Vandamme home.

 

[deskjet]

Hi Steve,heres a link to a war sickle not quite an axe but interesting http://www.toraba.com/detail.asp?c_urn= ... 12737&pg=1

Anthony

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

...omissis...All four are associated with the Tokugawa, ...omissis...My guess is that they were for personal protection indoors or just amusing novelties.

 

Yes, Ian, very rare.

I was referring to items inteded for battlefield use. I don't know of any specimen in between late Heian to beginning of Edo.

Hereunder archeological remains of one used to fight the Emishi :

 

 

Steve, There is an illustration of a Japanese axe, called O-no, in Stone's Glossary... on p. 475. He states it was used by yamabushi and is about 6' long. Curiously it is fitted with a scabbard or rather edge cover of semi-circular shape..

 

I wonder if is this one you're referring to :

[hybridfiat]

Thanks for the help chaps.

I wasnt refering to any particular style of type of axe just sounding out 'those that know' about something that has piqued my curiosity for years.

I believe that crossed battleaxes is a family mon. So why if the smiths were so particular about the manufacture of blades are there no juyo examples of war axe complete with hamon.

I could speculate and say it is because axes use a lot of steel compared to a sword and that axes were a peasants tool.

[Jean]

In a mêlée, War hammer, axes are much more efficient and easier to wield than swords

[hybridfiat]

Far less romantic and swashbuckling though

[John A Stuart]

I have been trying to sort this out. The pics Carlo posted are primitive weapons, axe like certainly. The second is a hand axe used in combat. Most true battle axes of the European variety were long handled, I think, Ian might know more on this facet. I searched and searched for some reference to battle axe that the Japanese used. Maybe those very proficient in the language can help. I tried to find pics associated with, 鉞 being a battle axe, 金 kane rad. and 戉 gatsu rad. and just 戉, but, came up with little. Apparently this character can refer to naginata as battle axes. I know we associate naginata more with halberd, but, halberds are really long handled battle axes. Does this mean the evolution of the naginata was the evolution of the Japanese equivalent of the battle axe? John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Does this mean the evolution of the naginata was the evolution of the Japanese equivalent of the battle axe? John

 

Early naginata evolved from "half moon" blades with short handle originally intended to cut

wood.

At work now, can't post pics, but i bet you get what I mean.

[John A Stuart]

Carlo, The doka would be a short handled battle axe. The tsukushi-fukuro-nagamaki would have developed from these. I did not know they were originally for wood cutting, but, that seems a sensible origin. John

[Jean]

Axes have been for ages, in all civilizations since prehistory, a favourite weapon when it comes to a mêlée : From the dwarves mentioned in the "Lord of the Rings" or "Eragon" :D , to the French "francisque" and the North American "tomahawk".

[IanB]

John, Jean, Technically a halberd is a staff weapon with an axe blade on one side, a downwards pointing fluke opposite and a central spike. At first the axe part had a straight sloping edge, but later more decorative ones developed a curved edge. The nearest thing to a naginata in Europe was the glaive, which has a long, single -edged knife-like blade, again on a shaft about 6 or 7 foot long. What we normally think of as hand held battle axes were quite rare in Europe, being an Indo - Persian weapon. Victorian illustrators usually depicted the axes with, usually, two curved edged blades in the hands of knights because they looked spectacular. In reality, almost all these are Indian or Pesian.

 

Ian

[Jean]

Ian,

 

Thanks a lot for the information. At first, I was wondering what Glaive were you talking about, considering that in my mind there was the association with the Roman sword (2 edges , short and straight). In fact, there is a distinction in French between Glaive and Glaive d'armes, glaive d'armes being referring to a pole arm used during Middle Age and which appeared at the end of the 13th century.

 

For members interested subject, there is a short description of it in Wikipedia :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vouge_(arme)

[Mike]

This is an excellent subject, I as well, had been trying to find hard evidence of Japanese war axes, without any success. I am sure there was use of axes as axe theme is found on tosho and ko-thosho tsuba, such as this one below. Mike

 

[John A Stuart]

Jean, Your link: Wikipédia ne possède pas d'article avec ce nom. John

 

Edit Brian - Fixed it. It wasn't taking the last ")"

[Jean]

John,

 

Here it is . Sorry, it is in French :

 

Arme d'hast à la lame courbe ressemblant à la vouge, il est parfois appelé glaive d'armes pour le distinguer du précédent. Il se peut que l’homonymie ne soit qu'une coïncidence, car il semblerait que les deux armes n'aient pas la même racine étymologique. Le glaive n'est plus utilisé comme arme à partir du XVIe siècle, mais comme arme d'apparat ou comme symbole des hérauts.

 

 

La vouge est une arme d'hast médiévale apparue en Allemagne et en Suisse à la fin du XIIIe siècle. Utilisée par les piétons, elle est comme beaucoup d'armes d'hast issu d'un outil agricole. La vouge est constitué d'un soc de charrue, monté sur une hampe d'environ 2 mètres, il lui est parfois ajouté un croc du coté opposé à la lame ce qui permet de l'utiliser de taille comme une lourde hache, d'estoc grâce à sa pointe et de crocheter l'adversaire avec le croc d'acier. Cette arme était conçue pour atteindre les cavaliers et tailler les jarrets des chevaux. La vouge était utilisé par les vougiers, hommes d'armes qui se mettaient en lignes, à deux mètres l'un de l'autre, sur 2 ou 3 rangées, et dont le but était de briser la cavalerie. Bien que ce ne soit pas leur but premier, les vougiers pouvaient, si l'occasion se présentait, être utilisés contre l'infanterie, si jamais celle-ci faisait une charge. L'évolution de la vouge suisse est à l'origine de la hallebarde.

[Baka Gaijin]

Good Morning all

 

Herewith a Taisho period Woodblock showing a war axe amongst other pieces of Samurai hardware.

 

By kabutogane at 2009-01-13

 

Got there!!! :D

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Malcolm

[IanB]

All, In prints, Benkei is often shown with a bag on his back stuffed with all manner of weapons including an axe. Like the kumade of the Heian period they cannot have been common, otherwise a lot more would have survived. As for the names of European staff weapons, the different types were given all sorts of names in different countries and by different authors - it is a minefield. The Royal Armouries has a forest of them with every possible combination of spikes and points that merge almost seamlessly from one into another. It is rather like defining colours - is it a bluish green or a greenish blue? For those interested, the best source on the subject I know of is Ewart Oakeshott's 'European Weapons and Armour' Lutterworth Press, London 1980. Interesting that these staff weapons were met with the same indifference by the Japanese as were European swords. There is a curious little yari in the Victoria and Albert Museum collection (on loan to the Royal Armouries) that has a secondary and separate piece with a cresent shape balanced by a downturned hook on the opposite side, fitted below the regular head. This is obviously imitating a halberd. It is quite small and probably made for a child. In Sladen & Lorimer's 'More Queer Things About Japan', Treherne & Co Ltd, London 1905 there are excerpts from an early 19th century 'Life of Napoleon' in one illustration of which the Japanese artist shows Napoleon on St Helena guarded by British soldiers wearing armour carrying glaives.