a gunto tsuba oddity

[lonely panet]

WW2 Imperial Japanese Army Gunto tsuba type 98 Very Rare Military Free/Ship | eBay

[Bruce Pennington]

Truly unusual.  Looks legit.  And with the first seppa in place, you'd never even know it's different.

 

Pics added for the future.

[Ed Harbulak]

The seppa would cover up the cherry blossoms and star. That's not the way the Japanese design a tsuba to be. Yes, there are genuine tsuba (not military) where the seppa can cover the design, but those really aren't "working" tsuba, but are designed as works of art. I think this is some sort of fake. In addition the two holes look like this was meant to be attached to something using nails or screws.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ed Harbulak
to add addition

[Bruce Pennington]

23 minutes ago, Ed Harbulak said:

meant to be attached to something using nails or screws

Interesting observation Ed.  I was bothered by those holes.  Now that I look again, the hole for the blade looks quite crude like it was cut out with a welding torch.

 

I know age can be faked, but the patina sure looks real.

[ROKUJURO]

I don't understand this design. How do the four big SAKURA flowers in the 'corners' of the TSUBA come into it? In my opininon, these are two different TSUBA.

As Bruce says, the NAKAGO-ANA is obviously crudely made.

[Bruce Pennington]

Jean,

the 4 corner Sakura are standard in military tsuba.  What is more unusual is that they would be missing on the other side.

[Michaelr]

With those two holes it looks like a light switch cover. I know the hole isn’t rectangular, like a light switch but does look altered. Just my 2 cents

     MikeR

[Bruce Pennington]

The next question would be - What are the holes put in postwar?

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Jean,

the 4 corner Sakura are standard in military tsuba.  What is more unusual is that they would be missing on the other side.

Thank you Bruce,

that was a silly question from my side! I did not think that the TSUBA could have two different sides! 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's a wartime commemorative medal/plaque, the seller pulled it off the base and added seppa to fool people. You see these now and again with their base on ebay and yahoo.jp auctions. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Here is what they look like normally: https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/543903216

 

[Bruce Pennington]

That explains the angled cut in the top of that one seppa!

[Kiipu]

The characters that were cut out were 記念.

記念 = kinen = memorial.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Kiipu

[Bruce Pennington]

Hmmm.  Memorial for WWII?  To what market?  I thought most Japanese either didn't care (the young) or didn't want reminders (the old).  Made for foreign buyers?

[PNSSHOGUN]

The people who served would've cared!

[Kiipu]

I do not know if it is prewar, wartime, or postwar.  The characters on the cartridge case are 錦城會.  However, if you plan on researching this item I would suggest using these characters 錦城会 instead.

[Kolekt-To]

Speaking of potential oddities (or perhaps less common, or possibly fake), do Type 97 (Kai Gunto) Sayas always have twin Ashi, or are there variations with single Ashi? I have seen Kai Gunto sayas with only one Ashi and I am wondering if these are legit. I'm aware my question is off-topic for this thread, but in my search of the site I was not successful in locating information concerning Type 97 Ashi so I thought I'd ask here.

[Kiipu]

Kolekt-To:  Here is a link to help you with your research.

NLF Gunto Discussion, Post #17

[Kolekt-To]

Thank you Thomas! Also, since I posted, I've learned that some Type 97's did have sayas with single Ashi and were authentic.

[Bruce Pennington]

It’s not common.  I think they just get loose and get lost.  I have one that they are both very loose.

 

You may also be seeing the post war souvenir that comes with one hanger. Discussed here:  

 

[Kolekt-To]

Bruce, if you were looking to purchase a Type 97, assuming the blade and mounts in good shape, but with a single Ashi saya, would the fact that the saya was the single Ashi type (or missing one of the original twin Ashi) be a deal-breaker?

[Bruce Pennington]

That's going to depend on your collecting goals.  Mine was to find a good representative of all the official types of the WWII gunto.  So a missing haikan (ashi) for me would be undesirable.  I have bought gunto with missing seppa, but they are easily replaceable.  My dad's Mantetsu was missing several parts and it took me 2 years to replace all the parts.

[Kolekt-To]

Thanks for your answer and insights. I do have a Type 97 with twin Ashi saya in my collection, but considering adding another with single Ashi saya if other characteristics are satisfactory/desirable. My main concern was avoiding the purchase of a Type 97 with single Ashi saya if they didn't exist. Also, was Shark skin commonly utilized on Tsukas of the Type 97's? If so, were more produced with Ray skin vs Shark skin, or vice-versa? I am aware that lacquered black canvas was utilized for Type 97 Tsukas late in the war. Finally, I did purchase a copy of Dawson's Cyclopedia and Kapp & Monson's "Modern Japanese Swords" (considering purchasing Fuller's book, as well), and I've been doing a lot of reading and researching since I got into this hobby a few months ago. I feel like my brain is exploding with information over-load. Lol!

[Bruce Pennington]

Both Army and Navy used ray skin.  The Navy simply lacquered theirs black.  I personally have never seen a 97 with shark same’.

 

I’ve  seen a couple of 98s with unusual things like snake skin, though.

[Kolekt-To]

Thanks again for clarifying Bruce! Snake skin would be interesting to see, indeed.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thou

Thought I had one on file.  This one is a saya cover.  If I can find one in same' I'll post the link.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

THIS ONE is either snake of shark.  I think it's shark, though:

[Bruce Pennington]

THIS ONE is unknown, but could be snake:

[Bruce Pennington]

THIS ONE is unsanded shark:

[Bruce Pennington]

ANOTHER SNAKE SAYA