oil used before petrolium products

[Stephen]

Just wondering.

What did the Japanese use for the first 800 years of samurai sword production before petrolium products were available ?

 

this was asked on another board, what kind of oil do you think was used.

[b.hennick]

I have no specific knowledge in this area but since Japan is a whaling nation I expect whale oil was a good possibility.

[Stephen]

Barry I was thinking animal also but found a plant in a search, lets see what comes before I post.

 

hint i have some growing along side my house

 

hurry spring!!!

[Guido]

Traditionally vegetable oil was used, usually camellia oil (Tsubaki-Abura 椿油) with a few drops of clover oil (Chōji-Abura 丁子油). It has a yellowish color, and strongly smells of cloves. It absorbs moisture, but gums up easily when dried. It's also mildly aggressive (which is good for cleaning swords in a less-than-perfect state of preservation), but quite messy when it soaks into the Saya.

 

Mineral oil (Kōbutsuyu 鉱物油) was used from the Meiji era on when mass-production of swords for the Japanese army started - it's cheaper and easily obtainable. It's clear, and thinner than vegetable oil, and doesn't deteriorate as fast; one also needs less of it compared to Chōji-Abura (as Chōji scented oil is called for short).

[Stephen]

Yes thats what i found.

 

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J02.167.htm

[Bugyotsuji]

'Stone' 石油 Mineral oil was discovered way back in Nara times. (Nihon Shoki, it was called burning water, or burning soil.) But seeds were pressed for oil, including Camellia as mentioned above, and Sesame and Rape. 600-800 AD. Woods high in oil such as Matsu pine was popular for burning. As oil lamps became popular, and as people noticed which fats and oils burned well, many sources were used including animal (horse etc) and fish oils, apparently. As animals came to be considered impure, or killing them was banned under Buddhist laws, whale oil took over from horse oil.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Allow me to be a little provoking.

 

Which oil (if any) do you think was used instead of "clay" to produce Hamon

in good ol'days, as Yoshihara is trying to replicate ?

[Guido]

Which oil (if any) do you think was used instead of "clay" to produce Hamon in good ol'days, as Yoshihara is trying to replicate ?

The use of mineral oil in quenching is another invention that came with the mass-production of swords for the wars of modern age. It's assumed that in early times Yakiire was done without any clay application at all. Smiths like Kojima Naohiro are quite successful in reproducing Yamatorige-like Chôji for some time now.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Thanks Guido.

Yes, seems that Yoshihara too now focus on reproducing Chojimidare without clay using

air bubbles as insulators, but Kapp once stated YY used oil in previous attempts to obtain

quiet very straight and well defined suguha (that IMHO are hardly made with no insulation

especially thinking at how they turn up in the kissaki) as seen in early works.

I've yet to find evidences of this, hence my request...

 

Chineses seems to have applied differential quenching using clay far before the first

Nihonto. Now that you're in the "Northern capital", have you read anything about this ?

[Brian]

I am sure you have seen it before, and it is slightly off topic from Japanese swords, but since there is such a strong link between them..

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.article.htm

Not anything I can see about quenching there, but a lot of other interesting pics, info and talk about folding.

Check out the 3 linked articles above the title there.

Guido..I think you had a hand in that exhibition, and have posted the link before.

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I am sure you have seen it before, and it is slightly off topic from Japanese swords, but since there is such a strong link between them..

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.article.htm

Not anything I can see about quenching there, but a lot of other interesting pics, info and talk about folding.

Check out the 3 linked articles above the title there.

Guido..I think you had a hand in that exhibition, and have posted the link before.

 

Brian

 

Thanks Brian, that's the exibition Antonio Conceicao Junior organized and to which effectively

Guido gave the bulk of the Nihonto section.

[Guido]

Yes, I acted as temporary curator at that exhibition. A phantastic show, but a royal pain in the neck to organize. If nothing else, It taught me a lot of respect for people who do this for a living. A gazillion little details and last minute improvising to make it work - I fell in a coma after opening day!

 

As to Mr. Yoshihara: he's a fine smith for sure, but the hype surrounding him is getting quite annoying. If we believe all the stories that circulate outside Japan, he basically reinvented single-handedly all secrets of the smiths of old, and is at the same time the most innovative smith that ever lived. Well, he's surely without peers when it comes to finding people to promote his work, besides his own brilliant work in this endeavor; a true master of "sword politics". Just my 2 Renminbi.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

a true master of "sword politics". Just my 2 Renminbi.

 

My too...

Wonder how much Kapp enters the equation too...