something to think about

[paulb]

The inabilty to hold physical meetings over the past twelve months has meant it hasn't been possible to look at and study swords not previously seen. I was trawling through some images and cme across this one. Just for fun take a look and see if, based on what little you can see you can suggest a date for it and possible tradition/school. 

details:

Sugata 68.5cm

sori 1.8cm

motohaba 2.5cm

sakihaba 1.8cm

kasane 0.5cm

It is O-suriage.

 

 

 

[David Flynn]

Hizen, Shinto.

[Bazza]

Yamashiro, Koto...

 

BaZZa.

[cju777]

Shot in the dark at my level... but late Kamakura Yamashiro, maybe Ko-Enju? Or even into Nanbokochu Chu-Enju.

 

Thanks for posting, cheers!

[Katsujinken]

Leaning Yamashiro / Rai. Nanbokucho. 

[Rivkin]

Sorry, can't see the boshi's shape clearly, but my guess is ko maru.

Still go for Enju, the end of Kamakura.

[NewB]

Well, I don't have enough knowledge but I have a blade that looks almost identical to this one of the Rai school Nambokucho except my nakago rust is considerably darker (black) and this one appears red. Last, not sure from the photos but I see some utsuri which makes me believe in my Rai guess. Aoe possibility?

 

Cheers

 

John

[paulb]

Thank you for taking the time to respond. The answers show a level of consistency i.e. Yamashiro or Yamashiro influenced (Rai Enju, Aoe and Hizen) Date-wise late Kamakura or Nambokucho seem favoured but I am not sure why. Dimensionally this blade  lacks the grand sugata that would automatically lead you to Nambokucho. I will leave it for a bit longer but below I have added some examples of Rai/Enju, Aoe and Hizen hada for comparison.

 

Rai/Enju Ko-itame hada

 

Aoe Chirimen hada

 

Hizen Konuka hada

[Katsujinken]

Jidai for me in this case comes from where the sori happens and the fact that it’s described as o-suriage. Not everything in Nanbokucho had a 3.5mm sakihaba after all. 

The nakago photo is out of focus, but it seems like some yasurime are just barely still visible. So I think late Kamakura is out. 

 

But I am probably just revealing the extreme limitations of my kantei abilities here! 

[Rivkin]

Ok, if we are told its not that old, then its Shinto Bungo. 

[Bryce]

G'day Paul,

Is this the famous Awataguchi nashiji hada?

Cheers,

Bryce

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Bryce said:

G'day Paul,

Is this the famous Awataguchi nashiji hada?

Cheers,

Bryce

 

Aaaah. Yes.

[paulb]

Once again thank you all for your input. The blade is attributed to Awataguchi Norikuni who is recorded as working between 1219 nd 1222. He was believed to be the son of Kunitomo and the Father or grandfather of perhaps the greatest maker of Tanto Yoshimitsu. He is also listed as one of the resident smiths of the Emperor Go-Toba.

I think this points out how difficult it can be to assess a blade from images. Most misleading of all was the nakago which as John pointed out looks red n the image. Two things one it is O-suriage so it is possible the tang could look less black then the age might suggest because the patination has had less time to develop on the newly formed nakago. In this case it has more to do with the lighting for the photograph. In hand the nakago is a deep rich black.

The shape is rather slender and if you try and imagine the ubu sugata it would have had a relatively strong koshi-sori and the overall shape slender and refined. it also has an ikubi kissaki.

Almost everyone picked up on the very tight ko-itame hada as all the suggestions were for schools that created this in varying degrees .However Awataguchi smiths took this to a whole new level. The hada comprises of a minute ko-itame, known as Nashiji and covered in very fine and bright ji-nie. When I first saw the Enju blade illustrated I said the hada was so fine it might be considered Awataguchi. Then I saw the Norikuni and realised how wrong I was. Nashiji is a whole level finer than anything else. On occasion works by smiths such as Kunimitsu and Kuniyasu can also include a nagare element and o-itame, but it is this very fine nashiji that makes Awataguchi work unique (at least in my opinion)

well done all who answered , all picked up on some elements which led to the strong Yamashiro association. Interestingly no-one got the date of manufacture which I think shows one of the issues is trying to date an O-suriage work.

[Ken-Hawaii]

An excellent lesson. Thanks, Paul.

[Tanto54]

Thank you Paul!  These exercises are great - still learning by watching...

[Katsujinken]

Thanks Paul!

[NewB]

This was amazing indeed. 👏

 

I was starting to lose sleep over it 😂

 

Could we get some more ? Very engaging!

 

 

John

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Even though Paul has good pictures I think swords like this are hard to appreciate from pictures. I believe this one was on display at Samurai Art Expo 2018, very fine sword.

[paulb]

Yes it was there Jussi. Interestingly it generated far less interest than some of the other blades there. I think the quiet conservative nature of the blade takes a lot of looking at to fully start to appreciate (it took me quite a while to get my eyes focused on what was there) but it was well worth the effort. Something touching 800 years old and in pretty much perfect condition and a quality level unsurpassed since. But yes I am very biased 

[jesup]

Nice... I was thinking (before I read the comments) kamakura yamashiro, but nothing more specific than that (and no idea when in kamakura)

[Bazza]

On 5/1/2021 at 3:47 AM, paulb said:

Yes it was there Jussi. Interestingly it generated far less interest than some of the other blades there. I think the quiet conservative nature of the blade takes a lot of looking at to fully start to appreciate (it took me quite a while to get my eyes focused on what was there) but it was well worth the effort. Something touching 800 years old and in pretty much perfect condition and a quality level unsurpassed since. But yes I am very biased 

 

A most interesting and thoughtful discussion, thanks Paul.  If I can add another strand, hada is not all.  Albert Yamanaka once wrote "If a sword doesn't have sugata then it has nothing".  While maybe somewhat over-stated, inasmuch as applying that dictum strictly would see much of our collections trashed in Albert's eyes, every once-in-a-while one draws a sword to be gripped by an almost inexplicable feeling.  It happened to me when I drew a big Shinshinto Sokan out of its contemporary koshirae.  I'm struggling to find words here...  This sword was breathtaking to behold.  I've seen quite a few big Shinshinto swords in my time, but this Sokan was truly something else.  I put this feeling down to the sugata, the shape.  Now that's something to think about...

 

BaZZa.

[paulb]

Hi Bazza,

Yes you are right. My second most used statement is "A good sword will never have a bad shape" whether ubu, suriage or O-suriage the shape should look and feel right. The shape has been developed in a classic "form following function" therefore if the shape is poor it wont cut as well and is therefore not good. However one caveat, a good shape does not necessarily mean it is a good sword. A piece of bar steel can be shaped to look special.

[Tom Darling]

It looks too robust for that period. It is an attribution.   Enju feels more typical.  IMHO.

[paulb]

Hi Tom

Both the NBTHK and Tanobe Sensei attribute it to Awataguchi Norikuni. The jigane is also considerably finer than I have seen on either Enju or Rai work. I think  the image may be deceiving you a little and the ikubi kissaki makes it look more robust than it actually is.

As always these are attributions but I would be very happy to accept that of Tanobe Sensei when he describes it as "A masterwork of the Early Kamakura period"

 

[16k]

Just seen this thread. I would have said Kamakura Yamashiro too.

[NewB]

I wish there were more threads as this one (regardless of photos VS holding the blade at hand). I can't express how much I have learned because of it.

 

Cheers

 

John