A word about amateur polishing

[Matsunoki]

55 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

If you encountered a blade with a lot of rust, as the blade I have shown in one of my previous posts, what would be your suggestions to remove the rust?

I’ll reply tomorrow. It’s Friday night and I can hardly see the keyboard🙂 

cheers. 

[Franco D]

6 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

What are you telling Joe?

 

That if he buys a $100-dollar rusty blade on eBay that he should send it to a professional polisher?  Then maybe spend a couple of thousand dollars (?) to have it polished to find out if it is a treasure or not?  Who has ever done something like that?  Doesn’t make a lot of sense.

 

 

Try, try, again.

 

1. What is being said is that sooner or later someone is going to come along and try their hand at polishing a piece without realizing that the $100 rusty piece was in fact something very special. Nothing more! Which is why amateur polishing cannot be promoted and or supported in a public form.

It needs to be further emphasized here that even people with advanced knowledge of nihonto sometimes make serious errors in judgment. 

Metal once removed is removed. 

 

8 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

What are you telling Joe?

 

That if he buys a $100-dollar rusty blade on eBay that he should send it to a professional polisher?  Then maybe spend a couple of thousand dollars (?) to have it polished to find out if it is a treasure or not?  Who has ever done something like that?  Doesn’t make a lot of sense.

 

 

Me.

 

But that's not what this is about. This is about amateur polishing.

 

And actually, Dan, it makes a lot of sense to someone who knows and understands why. 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

Amusing thread… I debated mentally whether to chime in or not (with the passage of time I more and more tend to just read and tolerate things I disagree with, since life and mental health are more important…)

@Dan tsuba

Tsuba Iconoclast Dan: I will only say here that treasures can be found on Ebay by those who have the knowledge to do so. I have two friends who have found very high level blades by top saijo Koto smiths on that marketplace. 
Personally, I have not managed on Ebay but have had some modest success dabbling on Yahoo Japan (even more treacherous…)

Have a read of this thread here: 

 

 

This is probably before your time on NMB….Anyway, the knowledge possessed by the protagonist led him to acquire a masterpiece in this auction, have a window opened by a polisher and then sent to Japan for top-level restoration. The blade went on to get Juyo etc etc. The same I think happened to another one in the same auction….

Years later another friend found on Ebay a nice tachi, etc. 

 

I see various people trying their hand at “removing rust”. I try to discourage it but people often have their own pre-formed inveterate views, which cannot be altered. It is true that there are low-value swords which will probably never be restored professionally and will probably languish in a sad state. One could strip the active rust with choji oil etc, perhaps get a window done….etc 

Newcomers in particular should be discouraged from such attempts, despite their being skilled in other hobbies, having a dab hand at other handicrafts etc. It is as simple as that. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Franco!

I don't understand what you are saying.

Maybe because of my lack of intelligence!

I have never stated that someone should try and polish there own sword (amateur polishing).

With my $100 dollar wakizashi blade that I bought on eBay I only tried to take off the rust.

There was no way of telling the "school/age/smith etc involved. …..or did you just set about it in total ignorance?" (as Colin stated, and he was correct).

How can you ascertain something like that from a rusted blade that has no mei?

I am actually tired of all the negativity that I have encountered on this forum.

In my own way, I am just trying to present alternative suggestions or different ways of looking at a piece.

Whether that piece is a tosogu or nihonto.

Maybe it is time for me just to stay off of this forum for awhile.

We will see!

Time for another beer!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

As has been said before, it all comes down to knowledge.

When I read that someone wants to get rid "only" of the rust on a blade without grinding/polishing, it is apparent to me that this person has absolutely no understanding that rust is not a layer on top of the steel like a paint, but the steel itself which has turned into iron oxide. Of course there is superficial and deep rust, but to prevent further corrosion, you have always to grind down to the bare metal. 

Without basic knowledge, you should keep your pinkies off any metal object. 

[Dan tsuba]

Jean,

Close your parentheses marks. I noticed that you just changed it to a slash (/), much better!

I have edited about eight novels, four to seven hundred pages in each novel.

Believe it or not, I am not all about tosogu or nihonto as my primary interests!

[George KN]

Arghhh, this latest discussion is a tough one for me!

 

I have been (and probably still am) that enthusiastic amateur that wants to fix the cheap but old items in my care, and consequently I have then gone on to do lasting damage to some of the things I've worked on. Regret is a very tough way to learn lessons (and a stupid one if there are other ways to gain the same knowledge).

 

I completely agree that if you have the money, send things off to be professionally restored! If you don't yet have the money, then save up! 

 

The only edge case (which I think some people are ignoring here), is what should you do if you don't have the money, but the sword is continuing to be damaged by its condition? As much as we really don't want to advocate for people to try and restore their own blades (gods forbid attempting a full polish etc) I do think there is ethical grounds for trying to stabilise rust if you can't afford a polish in the near future.

 

Should that only be through the use of oil, uchiko, and perhaps bone/antler picks? If so, I do think we should have some standard advice we can give new members about what to do in such a situation rather than shoot them down or give them the silent treatment (which I doubt will help do anything but encourage them), while at the same time informing them of red lines they shouldn't cross (using a stone, sandpaper, wire, cleaning the nakago etc), so minimising potential risks to the blade while still giving them something to do about it. (I think the earlier comments on this thread replying to Thomas's question on the tanto handled this well, before the recent revival)

I also really like Aaron's suggestion about directing people to polish rusty old yanagiba and deba if they really want to try their hand at it. 
 

Edited Saturday at 12:01 AM by George KN
Added mention of kitchen knife restoration as a healthier alternative

[Dan tsuba]

Hello George.

Well stated and well written!

Thanks!

[Hokke]

One of things that really bothers me about the world we now live in, is the premise that for every rule there is ALWAYS a loop hole. This is why laws are a joke now. No matter the law, theres a lawyer somewhere who has found a loop hole to exploit which frees his client from consequence. This thread seems to be no exception. 

 

First let's dispel the obvious. When someone is looking to buy and old rusty nihonto, they have already made up their mind as to what they are going to do with it. They KNOW their finances and whether or not they can afford restoration services. So the idea that someone buys a rusty nihonto and then has this internal contemplation of whether or not they should attempt any level of restoration is, IMO, unrealistic. 

 

So, let's say you (a complete novice) bought a rusty nihonto because the price seemed too good to pass up. What do you do now? You find your way to NMB as many do and post pictures. Those with wisdom and experience here tell you the blade is in too poor condition to give any information and so its advised for you to have a window polished. At this point you can do one of two things. You can ignore this advice and attempt rust removal yourself, effectively severing any assistance in doing so by members here, or, you can have a window cut and those same members here will be happy to review the pictures and provide more information. Either way, the choice is yours. What is being suggested here by some, so far as I can tell, is that NMB should carve out a loophole and start providing evoporust type recommendations. Really?

 

The issue here is very simple, where does NMB draw the line? If you advocate for DIY restoration at ANY level, fine. But be prepared for that loop hole to be used to solicit additional info on DIY restoration and now we are SBG. Word gets out that the accumulated knowledge of NMB is now open for every novice to come in a flood the boards with the same question, "how do i take this rust off my blade?" Members here either want this or they dont....simple issue, simple answer.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Calabrese!

What do you mean by "having a window cut"?

I have never heard of that before.

I have no idea what you are saying.

Do you?

You stated "simple issue, simple answer".

What are you talking about?

And I have no idea how to get rid of that "Quote" box below!

That is how computer ignorant I am!

Quote

 

 

[Kiita]

If you're afraid that a blade in your care is actively rusting badly, a thick saturation of good quality gun oil is harmless, easy, and will stabilize it substantially by excluding oxygen.

 

I gather that uchiko and a rag is uncontroversial for significantly out of polish blades. I've used it myself, it at least allows one to see the hamon somewhat, and while it may as others have described elsewhere harm a blade in good polish, I find it difficult to see how how anyone could meaningfully damage an already scratched or corroded blade with it.

[Mark S.]

6 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

What do you mean by "having a window cut"?

I have never heard of that before...

 

 

What are you talking about?

 

AKA “opening a window”.  A QUALIFIED polisher will select one or more locations on a blade and PROPERLY polish just that area(s) until activity can be seen so blade can be evaluated.  Now… why do I say QUALIFIED?  Because they also know how to polish the window so that if the blade warrants a full polish, the window they previously polished isn’t detrimental to the future full polish.  

[Dan tsuba]

O.K. guys.

I just read the post from Michael (Gakusee) above where he stated I was a "Tsuba Iconoclast Dan".  Well that was a big word and I had to look it up!  But thanks for the compliment Michael!
With respect,

Dan

[Mark S.]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

I am actually tired of all the negativity that I have encountered on this forum.

 

OK… everyone should do whatever they want to whatever they want in any way they want no matter what and we should be required to support and celebrate it.  Is that more along the lines of the positivity you are looking for?  I apologize to member Hokke for disagreeing with his “they just don’t care” theory.  Maybe I was wrong….

 

Joe is right… an amateur destroying a blade is the only way to learn and should be considered a ‘best practice’. Damn the advice from naysayers… full speed ahead.

[Dan tsuba]

Hey Mark.

Are you trying to be sarcastic?

Walk in my shoes.

How many threads have you started that have garnered 33.9 thousand views on a controversial subject.

How much crap have you had to put up with from those members that really seem to dislike you and the subject that you are presenting?

Don't make me go KMA on you!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc1

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark S.]

6 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hey Mark.

Are you trying to be sarcastic?

 

No no no… I’m all in.  This has been enlightening and liberating.  You see, for the longest time I have believed that all tsuba are the same… whether iron, iron with inlay, and soft metal… no matter school, age, maker, style, or quality and that I can improve them all by restoring them to bare metal with various acid treatments, steel wool, and other chemical/abrasive treatments.  Also, in an effort to improve them, I believe it best to experiment with different DIY treatments to restore what I believe was their original state.  Shiny is much better than the destructive patina from ages of neglect.  It really is the only way to ‘learn’ and who knows what is hidden under all the patina, grime, and years of handling?  It is up to me to unlock all their secrets by removing all that junk.  Besides, who made the ‘rule’ that patina is ‘good’?  Why are we locked into silly traditions and limited by past notions and practices?  HELL NO I SAY!!!  People here are just holding me back.
 

My only fear was the dinosaurs here who would criticize my methods and rain down heaps of negativity upon me.  While my controversial views might not be for everyone, I finally feel like I have found a brother in arms.  The rest here don’t understand us.

 

The best part is I know I am right simply because I believe I am right and that is all the justification I need.  Let’s face it, no one can stop me anyway, so they might as well all just roll over and accept it… 

 

Sooner or later they all have to realize… it’s them… not me…

[Franco D]

7 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hi Franco!

I don't understand what you are saying.

Maybe because of my lack of intelligence!

 

Dan,

 

This isn't personal and my comments are targeted knowing that there will be a wide audience including the inexperienced looking for information. 

 

7 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

1. I have never stated that someone should try and polish there own sword (amateur polishing).

2. With my $100 dollar wakizashi blade that I bought on eBay I only tried to take off the rust.

3. There was no way of telling the "school/age/smith etc involved.

 

1.Good! Don't!

2. Someone reading the fact that you bought a $100 wakizashi and tried to remove the rust might be encouraged to do the same, don't you think? 

3. hmmm.

 

 

p.s. most of the topics that have come up here in this thread have already been discussed.

Put the search feature to use!

[Brian]

Jean made an important point. Rust isn't a surface build up. It's part of the steel. For rust to form, metal is lost. That means that removing serious rust leaves a surface covered in micro pitting, which usually looks worse.
Oil will stop rust. You don't need to remove all the rust, just stabilize it and stop it from forming.
If you want to get rid of rust without anything abrasive, Evaporust will do it. The surface left will look pitted and worse in most cases. That's when people are tempted to use sandpaper to get rid of the pitting. And so it begins.
Stabilize the rust. Oil and wipe. Over time, the rust will get less.

[Alex A]

12 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Amusing thread… I debated mentally whether to chime in or not (with the passage of time I more and more tend to just read and tolerate things I disagree with, since life and mental health are more important…)

 

 

That's the best piece of advice anyone can get here

 

 

[Matsunoki]

16 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

If you encountered a blade with a lot of rust, as the blade I have shown in one of my previous posts, what would be your suggestions to remove the rust?

OK Dan, sobriety has returned so I will answer.

First I will explain that I am not a purist “blade man”.  I collect Japanese swords in their complete state with untouched koshirae. Expensive blades in shirasaya are not my thing. That means I can tolerate blades that are not in perfect polish. I prefer the polish to be Japanese but old and a bit scuffed is still fine. I will also buy swords where the blade has perhaps been cleaned inappropriately at some time provided there is no serious damage and provided most of the detail is still clearly visisble…usually there is a nice koshirae involved to justify the purchase, or it’s a really desirable package….ito maki no Tachi etc. 
So….to answer….i do not buy blades in the state you illustrate thus I don’t need to do much to them. I have used oil (sometimes WD40 type) and  various toothpick type things to dislodge any thick encrustation and then simply keep applying gun oil and eventually the rust becomes black and inert and that’s fine. I have persisted with repeated uchiko but frankly it takes forever and I usually resort to just oil again. I have some success with that method though….recently on a Showa Tanto…but it makes your arms and hands hurt like hell!
However, being honest and going back over 40 years in the UK all sorts of stuff went on largely fuelled by the type of ignorance or impatience or over-confidence that is being discussed here. We have never had sufficient polishers over here so you can “fill in the blanks”.  However using unqualified “improvers” back then was not limited to the “ignorant”. I was well aware of Token Society members seeking unqualified assistance……and some members even trying it themselves……but times have changed so we will leave sleeping dogs alone to continue sleeping. 
 

Edited Saturday at 12:09 PM by Matsunoki
Typo

[MHC]

I can't help but feel mystified, amused and slightly pissed...all at the same time over this plodding thread and the provocateurs, be them newbies or rainy day members.

 

Either your a member of NMB because you believe in the concepts, traditions and eloquence of Nihonto collectors/guardians, or your not. There really is no grey area here.

 

There are a plethora of other sword forums available that will stroke DYI egos. Hell anyone can go onto Facebook/ twitter/ etc. and get all the "likes" one is clamoring for. Don't forget to take the obligatory pic's too.

 

Can we just stop reminding everyone of the obvious and stop beating a dead horse.

 

Is it maybe, just maybe, possible to put an end to this relentless, pointless drabble of a thread?

 

Mark

[Tcat]

5 hours ago, Alex A said:

 

That's the best piece of advice anyone can get here

 

 

 

+1 and is the same reason I can barely bring myself to comment unless I'm feeling really in the mood for a good fight 

[zanilu]

18 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

How many threads have you started that have garnered 33.9 thousand views on a controversial subject

@Dan tsuba if you judge the quality of a post by the number of views you better go on TikTok... The value and quality of a post is not measured in that way here!

 

Luca

[Franco D]

 

First things first. What are the reasons that we're buying $100 blades caked over in rust?

Curiosity? Chance? Opportunity? Temptation? Boredom? Material fix?

Did we see something that wasn't there? Did we see something that we recognized? Was any of the decision making based upon real kantei analysis? 

The answer or answers to these question will probably determine what comes next.

An experienced collector will have bought the $100 dollar rusty blade for one or more specific (objective) reasons (other than it was cheap).

An experienced collector will be prepared to send the rusty caked over blade as is unless directed to do otherwise directly to the polisher, knowing that it will give the polisher the most material to work with thereby increasing the chances of a successful restoration of the blade.

 

An added perspective based on experience. 

 

Desire is the cause of suffering. 

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

On 1/4/2025 at 10:58 AM, Brian said:

......Oil will stop rust. You don't need to remove all the rust, just stabilize it and stop it from forming......

Brian,

if I'm allowed to correct you: This is only partly true. Some oils with special properties* (not low-viscosity sewing-machine oil!) can produce a "closed" layer, keeping oxygen away for a while and thus stopping the corrosion build-up. This works as long a the oil layer is kept thick enough and stable. Dust gathering on an openly displayed blade is not helpful. Wiping the oil off for re-sheathing the blade will lead to a very thin layer of oil which mainly remains in the microscopic crevices of the HADA. This means, a polished blade can be kept clean from rust if looked after regularly. Environmental factors like humidity play an important role.  
However, rust build-up on a blade is much more difficult to treat as it kind of absorbs part of the oil. In many cases, you will not achieve a "closed" layer of oil. Stopping the corrosion completely will rarely be possible, and the best result will often be just slowing it down.

So there is a very good reason to have a blade competently polished and keeping it clean.

* A high-viscosity oil will produce a relatively thick layer on the steel and provide good protection, while a low-viscosity oil has better "creeping" properties and will go into the HADA. But the layer thickness will be low, and it may run off the blade easily. So you want the best of both worlds for your sword oil, and often enough, natural oils are not 100% suitable and have to be removed and renewed regularly. Modern protective oils can have better properties, beading and running-off can be eliminated and desirable characteristics exactly as needed. On the other hand, they could be sticky and difficult to remove. Everything has to be tested!

[Brian]

Jean, correct. I guess I should have clarified. I don't just mean throwing on a layer of oil and leaving it. I mean a repeated process of oiling, wiping off all the red rust that loosens, then oiling and wiping..leaving to set, then wiping. It's a long process but is continued until the red rust is not active anymore and you are left with the more stable black rust.