A word about amateur polishing

[Brian]

I can guarantee you that most who buy these project blades and want to polish them themselves, don't really care about Nihonto, the tradition or the history. They just want a "Samurai sword" and age is more important than quality. They want a nice overdone painted on hamon that screams artificial, and to say to people "look, this is a gen-u-ine Samurai sword"
They don't want to preserve it and use gentle uchiko over many years until you can make out the hamon and start to see some hataraki under the grey...and then hope oneday someone will complete the proper process. They want instant gratification or to flip it on eBay for a profit.
They also forget how many of us "purists" DO have project blades in our own collections. But we resist the urge to polish them...gaining satisfaction from the fact that we can still enjoy the sugata, fittings (if any) and research what we have from the little we can see. Once you round off the shinogi and make the yokote disappear or skew (and they always so) and take away all the niku....the amount of metal removal to bring it back is extensive and likely takes off hundreds of years off its life.
At the very least, have a polisher open a window and tell you if the sword is a kazu-uchimono with ware everywhere, or if there is something to have checked out.
Either way, as a forum dedicated to the study and preservation, we will NEVER encourage this, and that fact should be obvious.

[Dan tsuba]

Some great information here about the study and preservation of art.

 

But let us not forget that Joe (and welcome to the forum Joe – it is a great forum!) in his first post on this forum specifically stated-

 

“If I want to buy a $100 rusty blade on eBay and try to reshape and polish it, it is my business.”

 

He didn’t state that he is buying a $10,000 work of art and is going to try polishing it himself!

 

Heck even I (a couple of years ago) bought about a $100 rusty blade from eBay and took off the rust (I didn’t try polishing it, just took off the active rust).

 

It was an interesting little project, and the blade turned out a lot better than when I received it.  If I hadn’t purchased the blade and worked on it, maybe by this time the blade would be beyond saving because of all the rust deterioration (so I feel that in my own way I did kind of preserve the blade).

 

I think (my opinion) we should give the new member a break and give him some time to learn.

 

 

 

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

But let us not forget that Joe (and welcome to the forum Joe – it is a great forum!) in his first post on this forum specifically stated-

 

“If I want to buy a $100 rusty blade on eBay and try to reshape and polish it, it is my business.”

 

He didn’t state that he is buying a $10,000 work of art and is going to try polishing it himself!

Nobody forgot. It was addressed directly by Mark just a couple comments later. To summarize: how does a beginner determine if a rusty blade is worth 100 or 10,000? 

The answer is, in this situation: Uninformed speculation and assumptions based entirely on it's 'for-sale' price. 

That's just simply not good enough. It's entirely counterintuitive to what we should be striving for in this community. 

I encourage everyone to read, and reread everything Brian has said. He said it better than me.
Cheers,

-Sam

[ROKUJURO]

41 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

.......so I feel that in my own way I did kind of preserve......

That's the problem.

[Franco D]

16 hours ago, joe2 said:

With all due respect.  If I want to buy a $100 rusty blade on eBay and try to reshape and polish it, it is my business.  Maybe I will learn I can't do it.  Or can't afford it due to the cost of the stones.  But claiming no one is allowed to try something is a pretty arrogant position.

 

Arrogance is some guy named "Joe" buying a hundred dollar rusty blade on ebay, who doesn't have a clue that the rusty $100 blade he just purchased may actually be a $5,000 blade, or a $50,000 blade, or perhaps even a $100,000 blade, because it's all the same to him after all, who then, without the proper training in the art of kantei, and without any formal training in the art of Japanese sword polishing, goes ahead and puts that blade to stone somehow believing (who knows what, really),  that he can save this blade, make it look acceptable again, a blade that might be as thin as 3mm, which leaves absolutely no margin for error in correcting and reshaping the foundation, and then, ooops!, he removes the last bit of metal that was needed to have it properly restored and saved.  

 

And if you don't believe that it can happen you would be wrong. In fact it has happened to collectors and even amateur polishers that should have known better. 

 

https://www.nihontoc..._Sword_Polisher.html

 

Quote

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” 

MLK Jr.

 

Edited Friday at 04:54 AM by Franco D

[Dan tsuba]

Come on guys!

 

I think you may have chased a new member off the forum (once again!).

 

As Franco stated in his last post-

“Arrogance is some guy named "Joe" buying a hundred dollar rusty blade on ebay, who doesn't have a clue that the rusty $100 blade he just purchased may actually be a $5,000 blade, or a $50,000 blade, or perhaps even a $100,000 blade, because it's all the same to him after all….”

 

So, when has that ever happened on eBay?

 

What are you telling Joe?

 

That if he buys a $100-dollar rusty blade on eBay that he should send it to a professional polisher?  Then maybe spend a couple of thousand dollars (?) to have it polished to find out if it is a treasure or not?  Who has ever done something like that?  Doesn’t make a lot of sense.

 

My opinion.

[Brian]

You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.
And this isn't some warm-and-fuzzy tree hugging everyone-is-a-winner forum. It's for serious collectors and enthusiasts. People we WANT to be the caretakers of Nihonto for the future. People who WANT to learn.
Not people who take the attitude "I don't care what you guys think, this is what I am going to do"
Lose new members? Tough. I'm not running a popularity contest. People with the balls to take criticism and learn from it will still be here a year later. Most won't because that's not what they are here for. They want people to say "What a wonderful rusty piece of metal, you are so cool"
If you don't know about the National treasures that have been found, identified and saved by collectors, or the top grade swords out of polish found at sword shows that ended up going Juyo...that's for you to go research.
We have nothing to prove, and we aren't here to promote amateurs buying project blades so that they can sand them down and etch out a hamon. Go to Facebook. But not the serious Nihonto groups there either. They will tell you the same thing.
Not going to change, if you don't like it...you know the deal. And don't throw the "discouraging potential new collectors" at me. Plenty of the guys here saying the same thing as I am were novices here a few years ago.
If they have the interest, they will read and listen, and not argue. Those are the guys that are now the ones giving good advice. Your opinion only counts when it makes sense. Otherwise it's just noise.
Am I clear enough?

[Dan tsuba]

Yes boss, you are clear enough!

I hope you are feeling better and healing.

But Joe was only talking about a $100 dollar rusty blade on eBay.

And I don't think something like that could be a possible National treasure.

But, once again, I could be wrong.

 

[Matsunoki]

37 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

But, once again, I could be wrong.

I don’t think you are really listening…..read this thread….and then you might, just might understand.

 

[joe2]

I can take criticism and I've been around.  I bought my first swords over 40 years ago and consulted with Hawley on provenance.  This was before his collection got stolen.  I've cut opals from all over the world and met the miners.  I've bought jade in Myanmar and in China on the Jade River from scavengers.  Cutting opal and jade is a lot like shaping and polishing a Japanese sword - thin layers, different characteristics, polish very differently.  I've made custom jewelry which is very similar to repairing and making small sword fittings.  My first attempt at lacquer was surprisingly successful. I can get the polishing down to a hamon, but I and not satisfied how it looks although I follow Takaiwa's book and vary how far down I take the rust spots     I've built weapons from AKs and HKs to M2HBs from parts.  I've collected rugs until I got priced out of the market.  So I like to do things and try to understand what the original creators did and how they did it. And that requires practice.   I always fail the first time but usually catch on.  The knowledge and skills learned are just as important as the objects.  And yes I have some nice swords that I would not touch.  These are my standards to work toward.  I find all this craft work satisfying in my retirement because it is so different from what I did for money.

 

Anyone want to buy my $100 dollar Ebay rusty blade for $5000?  You could find a National Treasure.  What would it cost to find out?  Give it a shot.

 

This so reminds me of the time I joined the Concord Minutemen thinking it was a drinking society and found out all they did was research how many paces per minute the original Minutemen marched and how their uniforms were stitched.  I did march in Nixon's inaugural parade and it was cold and I was the only one with a flask in my ammo bag.  Those guys had no common sense and I quit shortly after.

 

So let's agree to disagree for a while while I see if you have anything to teach me.  I'm open to learn.  Technology, techniques, styles, history, genealogy, history,  language.    If you are worried I will ruin a great blade, teach me how to identify it;  without gambling my life savings on fees.  Enough said on this topic.

[Dan tsuba]

Referring to Colin's post above.

 

You stated- “I don’t think you are really listening…..read this thread….and then you might, just might understand.”

 

No Colin.  You are the one who is not listening or reading my previous threads.

 

I stated blades purchased from eBay.

 

Then you show me a blade purchased at a court auction.  We are not talking about blades purchased from court auctions, garage sales, or handed down to the next generation.

 

I am talking about a $100 dollar blade purchased from eBay, can that ever be a prized blade or a national treasure!

 

Let me show you.

 

5 years ago, I purchased a very rusty wakizashi blade from eBay (I don’t even think that you can get a rusty blade from eBay at that price anymore!).

 

I took the active rust off the blade using oil, very fine sandpaper, and very fine steel wool (I know how to do that because of all the rusty kukri I have cleaned).

 

I never took any stones to the blade to try and polish it.  I don’t have them and wouldn’t know how to use them let alone even attempt something like that!

 

I feel that by cleaning the active rust off the blade that I (in a sense) preserved the blade.  Because if the active rust would have remained on that blade for a few more years, maybe there would be no more blade left to clean!

 

Should I have spent a couple of thousand dollars to have a professional polisher polish the blade?  Heck no!

 

I gifted the blade to a martial arts friend of mine.

 

Years later, he gifted the blade to his Sensei.

 

So, a lot of enjoyment came from this blade.

 

Did I possibly ruin a 5- or 10-thousand-dollar blade?  I don’t think so!

 

Before and after pictures of the project are shown below.

 

 

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Nobody is ever going to agree that someone untrained should polish a Nihonto here on NMB. Nihonto is not only art, but also culturally important. Many sword polishers (togishi), and smiths, dedicate their lives to the craft, and sacrifice A LOT to do it. Not to mention that particular sword may have history you're completely unaware of. 

I just think what you're proposing is ill-advised, but also disrespectful to history, culture, and the ancient+modern craftsman.

https://japaneseswordindex.com/togishi.htm

I'm not worried you'll ruin a great blade. I'm worried you're establishing a mindset of altering antique artifacts for no other reason than personal satisfaction. I'm worried that people will read this, and think "hey why not try myself, he did it!"

Dan, what you're saying and showing is irresponsible and harmful to the hobby.

[Bruce Pennington]

The reality is that guys are doing this all over the world, every day.  Only a fraction of a fraction of 1% ever come to NMB and talk about it.  This discussion is good, as it will make some guys think about it in ways they might not have considered before.  We are educating new guys.

 

As to Dan's example above.  In both the before and after states, the blade can still be professionally polished.  It's better that the rust is gone.

[Hokke]

Im curious how this topic has devolved into something strictly monetary. Having read this entire thread, a couple of times now,  it seems to me that the main points being conveyed are as follows:

 

1. If you're not planning to learn how to properly restore nihonto traditionally, the majority here recommend you DON'T try. This has NOTHING to do with potentially owning a masterpiece, it's about respect for the art. 

 

2. If you choose to attempt restoration of nihonto through means other than traditional, the majority here will not support your efforts with information on how to do so. 

 

3. If you are looking for political correctness and/or praise for your non-traditional methods, there ARE sites out there where you will find it, but this is not one of them. 

 

This of course is my interpretation and I am unaware of any official poll that has determined actual majority opinion here, so please feel free to correct me if I have presumed too much. 

[Matsunoki]

30 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

 

Then you show me a blade purchased at a court auction.  We are not talking about blades purchased from court auctions, garage sales, or handed down to the next generation.

Do you not have sufficient imagination to make the mental leap to understand that the link I posted is just a simple way to try and explain that treasures can be found anywhere…..including eBay. I believe that blades have been purchased from sellers such as Komonjo (widely regarded as frequently doubtful (sometimes unfairly imo)) that have gone on to gain high level papers???

I can’t be bothered to try and explain further…..you seem to lack basic comprehension skills or you just like arguing for the sake of it. 
 

[Brian]

What the hell is the difference between buying a $100 sword on a police auction and buying a $100 sword on eBay?
You seriously going to use that as a valid reason for anything?

[GeorgeLuucas]

Very good points about respect @Hokke

I figured they had already threw respect out the door, so a monetary argument might be more convincing .

To everyone else, I just don't get it.. Has Brian not been crystal clear on the topic?
Another downvote, Dan? Jeez.
-Sam

Edited Friday at 05:24 PM by GeorgeLuucas
Less pointy

[Matsunoki]

I believe I have read somewhere on this forum  that there is simply no place on this forum for anyone practicing or advocating amateur polishing??????

[Matsunoki]

58 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

5 years ago, I purchased a very rusty wakizashi blade from eBay (I don’t even think that you can get a rusty blade from eBay at that price anymore!).

I assume you identified the blade before you set about it? Please tell me the school/age/smith etc involved. …..or did you just set about it in total ignorance?

[Dan tsuba]

 

Well, here we go again!

All I showed was how and what I did to clean some rust off a blade, as stated in my post I would not even consider polishing it myself.

Then Sam stated-"Dan, what you're saying and showing is irresponsible and harmful to the hobby".

Well then, everyone on the Tosogu side of the forum that tells and advises people how to clean the rust of their tsuba are also irresponsible and harmful to the hobby.

Where does this double standard come from?

 

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

23 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Where does this double standard come from?

Well, it comes from me, because i'm the one who said what you copy/paste quoted.

You said you used sandpaper and steel wool, which, in my view, is a step further than simple rust mitigation or non-invasive rust removal. 

[Matsunoki]

17 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Well then, everyone on the Tosogu side of the forum that tells and advises people how to clean the rust of their tsuba are also irresponsible and harmful to the hobby.

Dan, there was a time when I half thought of you as type of modern day Darwin with your theories about cast tsuba and battling on in the face of adversity, hostility and ridicule…..but I did admire you for battling….although not when you resorted to KMA etc.
But surely, given your experience with tsuba you must realise the vast difference between the finish that is applied to swords compared to iron tsuba. The weeks and weeks of careful skilled finishing work that produces a geometrically perfect highly refined work of art. The knowledge that different stones work differently on different blades. Couple that with the many ways swords are constructed and the assorted steels involved and the different approaches that that requires……again …….surely you can see the difference? Polishers study and practice for many years and even then some never become masters. 
Put simply, it is very very easy to inflict unrecoverable damage to a blade, nowhere near so easy to inflict that level of damage to an iron tsuba…..unless you are a total idiot. 
Please convince us that you do have that understanding.

 

 

[Kiita]

For anyone who wants to try polishing blades and thinks it can't possibly be that difficult, there is an almost infinite supply of forlorn, rusty old yanagiba and deba for next to nothing on Yahoo Auctions Japan, with no value as anything other than tools and no risk of destroying an object of artistic merit. I think you'll find that even restoring a 20cm kitchen knife to a neat finish free of rust, with correct hamaguri geometry and crisp shinogi, and an even natural stone kasumi polish, is an art of its own, even though it pales in complexity compared to sword polishing.

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, Kiita said:

For anyone who wants to try polishing blades a

…….now that is a seriously good suggestion.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Matsunoki said:

…….now that is a seriously good suggestion.

That came across wrong!!!!

I meant his suggestion was a seriously good idea…..NOT POLISHING BLADES!!

I thought I’d quoted the whole post!

Sorry folks. 
I’ll go stand in the corner. 

[Jacques D.]

I'm going to play devil's advocate, but the respect for individual freedom that some people advocate must also apply to this subject. The owner does what he wants with his object. Not all swords deserve to be religiously preserved. For me, for example, showatto have no value whatsoever.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Colin!

Thanks for your very nice post referring to me!

(and no, no KMA's in this post-ha, ha, ha, ha,- I crack myself up!).

So, you stated-

"Put simply, it is very very easy to inflict unrecoverable damage to a blade, nowhere near so easy to inflict that level of damage to an iron tsuba…..unless you are a total idiot."

Yes, you are correct.

But I have a question for you.

When I cleaned the blade I showed in a previous post (I cleaned it about 5 years ago) I had no idea of this Evapo-Rust liquid..

If you encountered a blade with a lot of rust, as the blade I have shown in one of my previous posts, what would be your suggestions to remove the rust?

Not polishing the blade (that is a no-no), but just removing the rust.

Thank you,

and with respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Joe.

 

Yes, you stated-

“The owner does what he wants with his object. Not all swords deserve to be religiously preserved.”

 

But I have to agree with what the boss of this forum (Brian) and what others have stated.

 

Our job as collectors of antique and genuine nihonto and tosogu is to take good care of them.  We are just temporary custodians of the object. 

 

We don’t want to ruin them or possibly destroy them.

 

Now, in my case, I described in a previous post about a very rusty blade I purchased on eBay.  I took off the rust (the best I knew how at the time).  I did not (and never would) attempt to polish the blade.

 

I have just inquired and asked a much more knowledgeable member than I am how he would have taken off the rust of that blade.

 

This forum is the perfect place to find out how to correctly handle and possibly clean (not polish) nihonto and tosogu to preserve them for the  future custodians of what we have collected.

 

All you have to do is ask!

[Hokke]

31 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

I'm going to play devil's advocate, but the respect for individual freedom that some people advocate must also apply to this subject. The owner does what he wants with his object. Not all swords deserve to be religiously preserved. For me, for example, showatto have no value whatsoever.

Your point is well received with regards to individual freedoms, however, I dont think anyone here has proposed any ownership mandate. If you own an item you are free to do with it as you please. It seems to me the problem arrises if an individual comes to this forum and says "hey everybody, look at the polish I did......I dont need no stinking 6+ year apprenticeship". Because if you accept this level of participation on this forum, it opens the door to a whole host of other content......content UNFOCUSED on nihonto and its preservation as an art form. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I feel one issue for the bulk of rusty swords is that you can buy similar level blades in polish for cheaper than professional restoration costs would be. Many of the items are also below the level that professional polishers would preferably work on. If it would be financially profitable people would be buying these items and having them restored. However there is not much demand for example lower quality mumei wakizashi be it Shintō or Kotō. Therefore you would just lose money in having these professionally polished. Of course it would be amazing that each and every sword would be salvaged but for majority of the lower end items it is just not financially feasible.

 

Personally as I know I cannot afford restoration of items I just look for an item that is in condition that is acceptable for myself.

 

Now I think the different view that people might have is what to do with items that do not deserve professional polisher? For that I don't have an answer as I don't really even look at items in really bad condition, if it is not something like an ōdachi or a big naginata. Would be amazing to be a treasure hunter but with tiny budget it is not happening.