A word about amateur polishing

[Bazza]

Franco wrote:

>  An electronics grade 99.9% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol will work to remove sword oil, but take full precautions as it is nasty stuff

 

Franco, could you please elaborate on the 'nasty stuff' angle???  Petrol is nasty, carbon tetrachloride is nasty, a lot of stuff is 'nasty', but as a user of isopropyl alcohol for cleaning swords I'm aware you don't sniff the stuff or get too much on your hands.  What else is there??

 

BaZZa.

[Mac49]

Thank you very much for these useful recommendations!

I will regulary clean up the blade with grade 99.9% isopropyl alcohol and treat it with oil afterwards during the following months/year and will be very careful with the nakago. Not rushing the process is not a problem of course, especially for such traditional objects, but thank you very much for detailing, as I could have lost patience at some point without this information.

 

I will try to send pictures in a few months to share the evolution.

 

Again, thank you!!!

[Franco D]

19 hours ago, Bazza said:

Franco, could you please elaborate on the 'nasty stuff' angle???  Petrol is nasty, carbon tetrachloride is nasty, a lot of stuff is 'nasty', but as a user of isopropyl alcohol for cleaning swords I'm aware you don't sniff the stuff or get too much on your hands.  What else is there??

 

Hi Bazz,

 

Yes, many, many, things are far nastier. None the less, don't breath, wear gloves, vapor is a strong eye irritant, highly flammable. This stuff vaporizes into the air very quickly, be prepared. That's all, but isn't that enough. 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Franco D

[Edward Mahle]

It’s a shame people think just anyone can do this.

 

 

 

sincerely Edward

[Jon]

On 2/20/2023 at 4:46 PM, Mac49 said:

am sure that everyone would benefit from it if amateurs like me would have a (for us) understandable answer on why "it is better leave our blades to rust, than to remove its rust", even

One of the really import thing to understand when considering iron and steel is what rust is and how it works…a really simplified set of rules is that there are different types of rust to consider there is stable rust type and unstable rust…your aim is prevent any rust or if you have rust make sure it’s only stable rust. 

 

Red rust..this is bad rust it’s essentially active destruction and  if not managed will destroy the iron/steel item. It’s Hydrated oxide Fe2O3•H2O (high oxygen/water exposure) with another contaminant such as salt, its a sign that the environment itself is very corrosive it’s usually uniform….the classic example is an unprotected iron tool left in a garden shed.

 

yellow rust..this is bad rust rust from iron oxides that is very soluble and is creates in high water environments…a bike left out in the rain will form this yellow rust. Iron oxide-hydroxide FeO(OH)H2O (high moisture) it will run and will have run marks.

 

brown rust..another bad rust,this forms in low moisture high oxygen environments..Oxide Fe2O3 (high oxygen/low moisture). This is the sort of rust that a unprotected iron object will get in a family home. It tends to be spotty and will be propagated by contamination on the iron ( from a finger print etc).

 

now we have good rust…BLACK rust…this is rust that forms in a low oxygen and low moisture environment environment, Iron (II)oxide – Fe3O4,also called magnetite.

 

it tends to take longer to form than other rusts and can actually form as a layer under other rusts, especially brown rust…now the great thing about black rust is that it’s stable and does not propagate but more than that it forms a layer that protects against active rust types ( red, yellow and brown)…for old artefacts made of  iron and steel ( swords and other weapons ) black rust can be a savour and preservative…very old European swords will often be covered in a coat of black rust and You do NOT EVER remove this black rust from these artefacts ( unless your a philistine) as it’s the patina of age and authenticity and protection all in one..Japanese swords are a bit different in that the collectors aim to have the blade in Polish and free of any rust ( to see and study the steel) but even Japanese swords preserve that black rust on the tang ( again to show the age ) the act of collecting and and appreciating Japanese swords is actually a bit of destructive process to gain access to the steel in the polished state  ( no other area actively removes metal from artifacts…as a collector of old stuff it took me a while to get my head around the Japanese sword collection paradigm).

 

So with a blade like this that you are not going to likely get polished by a professional Polisher your best bet may be to follow a more European sword collecting approach which is to stabilise and protect only ( until you can get an expert opinion on the worth of polishing). 
 

so your aim is to stop the red,yellow, brown rust and stabilise to only having black rust. The way you do this is to remove oxygen and moisture..so first oil…second oil and third oil. A good machine oil is best such as sewing machine oil ( I use singers sewing machine oil it’s cheap and easy to get hold of)…if it’s heavily red rusted I tend to actually give it thick layer of oil for a good few days…this really helps the oil penetrate the rust…carefully cleaning  with good quality lint free cotton cloth and 99% ethanol …then it’s a case of thin layers of oil and clean every few days after a while you should have nothing left but black rust…then it’s just maintaining protection which is a very light ( no beading) layer of oil and  leave that black rust well alone unless your sending it to a polisher….resists using acids and rust stabilisers on Japanese swords or any historic artifact for that matter.

[Brian]

Excellent summary.

[Baka Gaijin]

Excellent, worth separating out and pinning in the info section.

[Brian]

Good idea Malcolm. I have edited a little and added it to the FAQ. Thanks Jonathan.

[althesmith]

I'm not playing Devils advocate, but I know that everyone practicing cutting in Japan is using a traditionally made shinken,  literally by law, and many outside Japan as well. I can't see them getting a full art polish after each cutting session.  So are they getting a " martial arts " grade polish or doing their own maintenance to take care of scuffs and scratches, bends etc.?

[catty]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:36 AM, Andrew Ickeringill said:

 

The most basic requirement is to put in the necessary effort yourself.

Guys, I've emailed every professionally trained polishers I can find, local are not a accepting new work and no Japanese polisher has bothered to reply to my emails. Some direction would be greatly appreciated. I feel that many may resort (Out of desperation) attempt to polish their own.

 

Mark

[Brian]

Being in Australia, I assume you checked with Andrew?

[Lewis B]

44 minutes ago, Brian said:

Being in Australia, I assume you checked with Andrew?

Andrew is swamped. And for good reason. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

You will need to go through an agent for polishers in Japan. Paul Martin and Robert Hughes come highly recommended.

[catty]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:35 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

You will need to go through an agent for polishers in Japan. Paul Martin and Robert Hughes come highly recommended.

Thank you for the recommendations

[Emil]

On 3/5/2024 at 2:00 AM, althesmith said:

I'm not playing Devils advocate, but I know that everyone practicing cutting in Japan is using a traditionally made shinken,  literally by law, and many outside Japan as well. I can't see them getting a full art polish after each cutting session.  So are they getting a " martial arts " grade polish or doing their own maintenance to take care of scuffs and scratches, bends etc.?

 

Sword polishing comes in different levels based on purpose and budget. A basic "tameshigiri polish," focused solely on sharpness, costs around $600-$1,000 USD, while a high-grade "art polish," aimed at enhancing the blade’s beauty, can exceed $2,500 USD.

 

If you plan to cut with your sword, expect scratches and minor bends, these are unavoidable and should be handled by a professional polisher.

 

For practitioners outside Japan, use a chinese made reproduction sword for cutting.

 

.

[Katsujinken]

Practitioners who cut regularly in Japan will simply have their swords sharpened on a stone, without proceeding to true polishing stages (see photo). This takes only a few minutes. 
 

As mentioned above, there are also some togishi who offer a “batto polish,” which is maybe around $1000 and not as extensive as an art polish. To the untrained eye a batto polish looks nice though!

 

Not all traditionally made swords are meant to be art. But knowing and appreciating the difference is important. I train with both non-Japanese shinken and shinsakuto. 

[The Forest Ninja]

On 11/7/2024 at 12:37 AM, Emil said:

For practitioners outside Japan, use a chinese made reproduction sword for cutting.

 

That's the plan. I'll be using my Paul Chen/Hanwei for cutting. 

[BKB5]

Is it ok to take some #0000 steel wool and fine gun oil and give it a good clean?  : )

NOT something I will do on a Japanese blade except maybe one is in such bad rusted shape the red rust should be stopped.

 

In the US and Europe - it seems to be a bit of taste - not to Japanese swords - foreign made other swords. I have seen some Napoleonic French XI cavalry sabers look brand new top to bottom including the scabbard. In the United States I have seen a 20K United States rare Confederate sword that look to have been in a damp basement for 175 years - to touch it would take off 85% of the value.
I'm a very handy guy and Polishing a Nihonto will not be a skill I try. I did fix a black Urushi saya with Japanese ordered Urushi, Fine Turpentine, Fine camel hair brush, rice paper, a humidity box and #2000 and #3000 grit sand paper. Finally Polish powder and Iboda wax too polish. Shipping broke the saya in 2 cracks from the mouth. 

 

The saya is good as new - me - despite gloves and care - I am EAT UP in Urushi rash!!!!! WHILE trying this be really careful with that stuff - no fun. 

 

[joe2]

With all due respect.  If I want to buy a $100 rusty blade on eBay and try to reshape and polish it, it is my business.  Maybe I will learn I can't do it.  Or can't afford it due to the cost of the stones.  But claiming no one is allowed to try something is a pretty arrogant position.  Do you change your own oil or worry you will ruin your engine?  I have done a lot of stuff when I did not know whether I could do it or not.  If it interests me and I want to learn to do something, I find trying and practicing after research from knowledgeable sources is the only way.  Many things like welding are only learned from practice.  if I lose money, it's my money.  What else are you going to do with a badly rusted sword?

[PNSSHOGUN]

45 minutes ago, joe2 said:

With all due respect.  If I want to buy a $100 rusty blade on eBay and try to reshape and polish it, it is my business.  Maybe I will learn I can't do it.  Or can't afford it due to the cost of the stones.  But claiming no one is allowed to try something is a pretty arrogant position.  Do you change your own oil or worry you will ruin your engine?  I have done a lot of stuff when I did not know whether I could do it or not.  If it interests me and I want to learn to do something, I find trying and practicing after research from knowledgeable sources is the only way.  Many things like welding are only learned from practice.  if I lose money, it's my money.  What else are you going to do with a badly rusted sword?

 

Welcome to the forum, Joe. If you have the patience and interest to learn properly about Japanese swords, we hope you can join us in the descent from Mt. Stupid.

[Brian]

Maybe oneday when you learn that you aren't collecting random weapons, but a 1000 year tradition of art, you'll understand.
Most of us don't think of us as "owning" these items, just preserving them for future generations.
You're comparing them to cars and welding, when you should be comparing them to one off paintings and sculptures. When you own that rusty blade that you think isn't worth preserving...do you have the knowledge to know that it isn't something significant?

[Mark S.]

2 hours ago, joe2 said:

But claiming no one is allowed to try something is a pretty arrogant position.  
 

No one said that.  What we are saying is we don’t support it, recommend it, justify it, talk about it, teach it, or acknowledge it as a proper practice here.  
 

PLEASE read (or reread) the very first post in this thread.  It answers all the ‘why’s’.  

[Bruce Pennington]

I always get into trouble when I join conversations like this, but I see Joe's point, a bit.  A guy buys a trashed blade and brings it to NMB and everyone says "Junk!  Ruined! Zero Value! etc, etc, etc"  But if the guy brought that same blade and said "Hey, I'm going to polish this myself" .... everyone flips out.

 

Now, I understand the fear is that the rookie may have a blade that actually IS recoverable, and is incorrectly assuming it is ruined, so therefore his amateur polish WILL ruin a blade that could have been saved.  But, my original point seems to be what I don't get.

[GeorgeLuucas]

[Hokke]

Bruce makes a fine point and I agree. There is one looming question that never seems to be answered without sarcasm or defensiveness on this issue. The question is......WHY? I'll come back to this. I am a Gen Xer, arguably that last generation worth a damn when it comes to common sense and understanding the value of a hard days work. The societal mantra of today however, seems to be, buy anything you want and once owned, it's yours to destroy. Technically, this is true, but it certainly speaks volumes about those who adhere to such a concept. That said, there are more reasons than ever to adhere to this philosophy as we live in a world where being provocative can be profitable. Profitable in that people will pay good money to someone unqualified because they think there is a chance they have found a bargain. It's profitable for those who make a living on social media poking the bear on long standing traditions just for views and comments, hoping it will go viral and in turn be profitable in the long term. What I find interesting is that usually when you find DIYers, what you DONT find is passion. However, if you do happen to find what they are ACTUALLY passionate about and apply the same "own it, destroy it" concept, all of a sudden the light bulb goes on. 

 

So, back to my initial question, WHY? I am not asking why someone would choose to attempt a polish on nihonto, My question is why would you begin your journey into polishing on nihonto when there are literally hundreds of thousands of modern made blades out there at your disposal to ruin?  The answer is always going to be the same, because THEY DONT CARE. DIYers dont care about the history, they dont care about the discipline, and they dont care what any of us think. The world is theirs and we are just living in it and you know what, they have every "right" to feel this way. What they DONT have a right to do is expect any help or guidance on a forum like this where members DO care. I firmly believe that the only thing we can do is abstain from lending any guidance or wisdom even in its most basic forms, which seems to be the case here. Will this stem the problem of DIYers ruining art, even poor quality art, NOPE, but it certainly won't make it easier for them. The issue for many is being able to abstain, assertively. Loosing composure and employing sarcasm or other such snobbery only, IMO, only serves to weaken our community as a whole. The best conversation we can have on DIY polishing, IMO, is NO conversation at all, crickets. No flipping out as Bruce alluded to, no condemnation or other public shaming......just crickets. 

[Shugyosha]

Yep, already blocked Joe2.

[Mark S.]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

A guy buys a trashed blade and brings it to NMB and everyone says "Junk!  Ruined! Zero Value! etc, etc, etc"  But if the guy brought that same blade and said "Hey, I'm going to polish this myself" .... everyone flips out.

 

I think this IS the point… a beginner (and I mean no offense as I still put myself in that category) doesn’t know the difference and worse “doesn’t know what they don’t know”.  

 

In fact I’ll turn your scenario in the other direction… they buy a blade and then come here asking for our advice, and when we give it to them (both blade quality and amateur polish), they are all offended and flip out at the advice.  
 

If you don’t know enough to evaluate a blade AND know you don’t have the qualifications or skill to polish a blade, you shouldn’t.  Let’s face it, most of us who have been here long enough have learned not to touch a blade.  

[Bruce Pennington]

Good points, Mark.  

I suppose if I were the one wanting to try my hand at it, I'd take the blade to the Nihonto Forum and ask - Is this salvageable or trash?  THEN, move from there, depending upon opinions given.  The guys, like you say, that argue with the experts cannot be helped.  We do see that often, unfortunately.  Makes you wonder why they even ask, if they aren't prepared to accept what they hear.

[Mark S.]

15 minutes ago, Hokke said:

 

The answer is always going to be the same, because THEY DONT CARE. 
 

I don’t believe they don’t care… initially.  I believe they don’t ‘know’ or ‘understand’ what they are contemplating doing.  We are here to help them with that.  After we do that… if they still proceed… THEN they don’t care.  
 

And here is where I struggle with some of our members and the “how” we do it.  Yes, we can be sarcastic, or rude, or make snide comments, or be so direct that a kick in the nuts seems tame and claim “we are just being brutally straightforward and everyone immediately needs tough love because that’s what happened to us”, or we can try to understand that they “just don’t know what they don’t know” and try to guide and teach.  There is always time for a boot to the sack later if they won’t listen. 

[Mark S.]

… and for those that think I haven’t made any mistakes.  Long ago I purchased a WW2 US M1 carbine bayonet for about (at that time) $50.  I decided in my ‘inifinite wisdom’ that it would be cool to sharpen it.  I took what is now worth about $150 (give or take) and made it worth $0.  I have kept that blade as a monument to me “not knowing what I didn’t know” and as a reminder that my arrogance has consequences.  Regret is a terrible teacher and destroying a piece oh history a poor legacy on my part..