Strider Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 Stephen, over a year ago, you helped me post a nakago photo for translation. The mei read as follows; Shinbu fusatsu takayama to ujinaga saku. I have also tried to find a reference to a Takayama prison or shrine that made swords. I think that the sword I have may indeed be made of this rust resistant steel that was mentioned in this post. I do not know how to go back and look for the post I made to compare photos. Keep up the good work. Scott Quote
Stephen Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 Thanks Scott id like to start a folder on Takayama so if you dont mind post pix here on email me the mei, i remembered it but could not find the post. Hai domo! Quote
Nobody Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Anyway here are the translations for the inscription. 謹作高山刀 – Respectfully made Takayama-To 刀匠 石原正直 – Sword smith: Ishihara Masanao 研師 木村忠兼 – Polisher: Kimura Tadakane I cannot understand why you are convinced that there was a Takayama prison and the sword was made by prisoners. I have read through this thread and linked references as well as Ujifusa case, but there is no evidence which connect the sword to so called Takayama prison. AFAIK, Takayama-To are swords developed by the Japanese navy under direction of Col. Takayama. Quote ５．ステンレス刀 海軍士官専用のものであって長いこと海上勤務して海水に浸ったり、汐風に当っても錆びないよう十八クローム鋼を主材料としたものであり、現時各家庭で使用されているステンレス包丁と思えば大差ないが切味は炭素鋼に及ばない※4。 本刀は海軍武道師範の高山範士が考案指導したから「高山刀」とも言った。 Ref. http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_127.htm Quote
Nobody Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Strider said: Stephen, over a year ago, you helped me post a nakago photo for translation. The mei read as follows; Shinbu fusatsu takayama to ujinaga saku. I have also tried to find a reference to a Takayama prison or shrine that made swords. I think that the sword I have may indeed be made of this rust resistant steel that was mentioned in this post. I do not know how to go back and look for the post I made to compare photos. Keep up the good work. Scott This is the thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=676 Quote
Jacques Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Hi, As i am a ko-budo practitioner , i made a search about Battodo which are elaborated during WWII, Takayama Masayoshi was the initiator of Jissen Budo Takayama Ryu Batto Jutsu, and taught it at the Imperial Naval Academy. He said that one cannot kill people with a sword using only kendo training (Shinbu fusatsu). More info here. Quote
Stephen Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Thanks Moriyama sama and Jacques, one reason I could not find it on that site was its all in Japanese. Still very interesting sword and would like to see if it turn's out to be true nihonto, I bid my gas bill money but its past that now, thank god, if a member wins this please keep us updated on activity of the blade. we have seen some were Stainless Steel and not true nihoto, Quote
loiner1965 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Posted January 5, 2009 thank you Moriyama sama for the translation as its much appreciated.as stephen as stated in previous thread about not being able to find a definate link to a takayama prison and only personal statements this is true.....unfortunately i can only go on what i have read on the net as i do not know myself, i must say i do find all this facinating and quite enjoyed mour sunday morning dust up with stephen :D even though his knowledge of nihonto is 1000x more than what i know. never realised my posting would create so much activity amongst us and i am glad because i learn a little bit more each time i log on......i will keep an eye on the sword and have asked for more pics which should arrive on tuesday......the plot thickens so to speak Quote
loiner1965 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Posted January 5, 2009 http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/oshigata/masanao.jpg this is oshigata from masanao which i believe is the same as what i called the prison sword....can anyone tell me why the polisher signed his mei too i know its not common but does happen and this is the second masanao mei i have seen it on Quote
Nobody Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Here is another Takayama-To signed by Ishihara Masanao. http://japansword.art.coocan.jp/Auction ... uction.htm The seller explains that the blade was made of stainless steel and does not need frequent polish, so the signature of the original polisher will be meaningful for a long time. However; I do not know the validity of the theory. Quote
Strider Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 This may be a little off topic, but would a togishi polish one of these blades if they were not "true" nihonto? I feel that the scarcity and variation of these swords may make them worthy of proper preservation. Would this be considered a "courtesy polish"? If there are any polishers watching this thread, please respond with your opinion. BTW, I was so excited to see a thread related to something that I have been trying to research. Scott Quote
Stephen Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Thanks Steve but in all modesty my knowledge is minute to some of the board members, and in the case of this sword Moriyama sama deserves most of the credit. I believe he is one of the most dedicated and relentless member we have. Quote
loiner1965 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Posted January 5, 2009 just checked the ebay sale and he describes it as " polished temper line " now does this mean its stainless and had a hamon polished in with stones etc....will ask him lol Quote
Brian Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 Being a Takayama-to, it likely is one of the "stainless" blades that were produced for the navy. Therefore the hamon will be artificial, and polished on. The polisher would have been responsible for the final lines and maybe adding the "hamon" As such, they would not be allowed into Japan, and therefore a Japanese togishi could not repolish one. A Western polisher would though. (But why would you want to, if there is no hamon or hada to bring out?) Brian Quote
Stephen Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 the link, not sure we can say this one is SS http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0324847075 Quote
Brian Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3234 Same smith, different polisher. The link in that thread to: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2393 also gives some info. Brian Quote
loiner1965 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Posted January 5, 2009 cheers brian for the link but i was one step ahead of you :D ...as stephen says we cannot be sure if its stainless steel with a polished on temper line....noticed the tang as a dark patina / rust......would stainless steel be like that. also on the link it shows a sword by mashiro......made at takayama prison 1 Quote
loiner1965 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Report Posted January 5, 2009 couple of pics received from ebay seller....looks like the hamon is false Quote
Strider Posted January 5, 2009 Report Posted January 5, 2009 I would not be too quick to state that this is a false hamon[ although in this case it may be]. The Takayama-to that I have does indeed have a temper into the metal even though it is simple and straight and tough as hell. I will try to get a picture posted. If I am understanding this thread, there might have been a special steel developed by a man named Takayama. Would all swords made from this material be classified as Takayama-to? Would this be a specialized area of collecting as in Mikasa-to [ was that the battle ship?] and Manchurian railroad swords? The plot thickens Scott Quote
Stephen Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 Mr. Stephen Christensen I received the photograph from you. The naval martial art instructor's Masayoshi Takayama devised the sword not rusting. This sword is called "Takayama sword" by an alias. The quality of the material of this sword contains chromium 18%. I attach the photograph of another Takayama sword. Sincerely yours. Tomoyuki Ohmura ----- Original Message ----- From: H2obro1@aol.com To: xxxxx Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:47 PM Subject: Takayama to This just in from Ohmura sama, also two pix, they may be to large to post but worth the wait to open. enjoy. Quote
loiner1965 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Report Posted January 6, 2009 nice looking sword but is the hamon false Quote
Nobody Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 Stephen said: This just in from Ohmura sama, also two pix, they may be to large to post but worth the wait to open. enjoy. The pictures seem to be the same I posted in my previous post in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4523&p=34673&hilit=takayama#p34673 Here is its auction page (ended). The strange thing is that the sword has a Torokusho and seems to be located in Japan, though the seller says that it is made of stainless steel. http://www.bidders.co.jp/item/110573332 Quote
Bazza Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 Gentle Persons, I have seen a few of these swords over the years and have not felt an affinity for any of them. One was a VERY large sword and I do have some oshigata, both internet and personally made, of these swords. I also have an extensive archive of various list discussions over the last 12 years or so and FYI append below such information as I have. Bestests, Barry Thomas ------------------------- From: Francisco2@aol.com To: nihonto@northcoast.com Subject: Kanenao Ishihara Date: Sunday, 1 December, 1996 8:33AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, Has anyone ever heard of a bladesmith called Kanenao Ishihara? All I know is that he was making gendaitos during the early part of the war. Can anybody elaborate any information about him other than this? Francisco ================================================ From: RngrSteve@aol.com To: nihonto@northcoast.com Subject: Re: Kanenao Ishihara Date: Sunday, 1 December, 1996 6:30PM -------------------------------------------------------------------- There was a smith who worked in the Takayama prison in Hida province during the war named Ishihara Masanao. Blades here were made with abnormally thick kissaki. Could this be your man? Steve ========================================================= From: Richard Stein To: nihonto@northcoast.com Subject: Kanenao Date: Sunday, 1 December, 1996 2:47PM ------------------------------------------------------------------- Fuller and Gregory list a Kanenao as signing two ways: Seki (no) ju Ishihara Kanenao Noshu Osugi (no) ju Ishihara Kanenao saku No specific dates given, but if it is in late 44 style mounts, that dates it right there Hope this helps. Richard Stein =================================================== From: GOMONE@aol.com To: nihonto@northcoast.com Subject: Re: Kanenao Ishihara Date: Sunday, 8 December, 1996 11:48AM ------------------------------------------------------- I have one of his blades and as you have noted teh kissaki is very thick , 1/4 inch and very short. I have seen one other and it was teh exact same as mine how many did this guy make??? ====================================================== From: RngrSteve@aol.com To: nihonto@northcoast.com Subject: Re: Kanenao Ishihara Date: Monday, 9 December, 1996 2:21PM -------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 96-12-07 19:50:41 EST, you write: << I have one of his blades and as you have noted teh kissaki is very thick, 1/4 inch and very short. I have seen one other and it was teh exact same as mine how many did this guy make? >> It was Ishihara Masanao who made blades with thick kissaki that I referred to. He and Hattori Masahiro opened a forge at the Takayama prison in Hida province and used prisoners as students and for polishing in a manner similar to the system set up by Chounsai Emura (Nagamitsu) in Okayama prison. At times Takayama blades featured the prisoner-polisher's name in the mei. The United States Strategic Bonbing Survey of January 1947 lists "prisoners in prison workshops engaged in swordsmithing" as 240 in 1942, 290 in 1943, 303 in 1944, and 380 in 1945; but no figures are given for blade production. (ref: R. Fuller, 1996) Steve Johnson =================================================== Quote
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