Robarto

[Robert Trend]

Having recently purchased  this Kunikane blade with as i believed a mumei signature, upon receiving it i was not so sure

please advise . having read previous Nihonto discussions on false Kunikane signatures the Kuni seem to be late for the rest 

of the signature

[SteveM]

仙臺国住藤原国包

Sendai kuni jū Fujiwara Kunikane

 

The "kane" bit is cropped, so I can't say for sure this is what it says, but since you mention the sword is a Kunikane sword, and since it resembles his signing style, its not so much of a leap of faith to call this signature "Kunikane". (As to whether it is authentic or not, that is a different matter, and one that requires a more expert opinion). 

 

The attached is an authenticated Kunikane, for reference

https://www.touken-world.jp/search/23320/

[Brian]

@Peter Bleed

[ROKUJURO]

.....Having recently purchased  this Kunikane blade with as i believed a mumei signature, upon receiving it i was not so sure....

Robert,

MUMEI means 'no signature',  you probably meant GIMEI (false or faked signature).

[Jacques]

Gimei without doubt, the ji kuni (国) is engraved a wrong way.

[Nobody]

Actually there is no “国 (kuni)” just after Sendai in the mei.

—-> 仙臺住藤原国(包)

 

 

[Peter Bleed]

Robert,

I am pleased to see this signature - and I thank Brian for bringing it to my attention.

I don't see why you'd call this a gimei. Indeed, I would bet - were it to be submitted to a trustworthy shinsa team (assuming you could find one of them AND that the swords 'looks' okay), THEY would/should say "Mid-Edo, School of the Kunikane."

There were at least 13 generations and the line fell on hard times from numbers 4 thru 11. But there were guys there the whole  time with the name and the familial right and responsibility to make swords with this signature. NO ONE would think this a sword made my generation, 1, 2, or 3, But I would bet that it IS a Kunikane.

Please tell us about the sword,   MASAME???

Now, if you find this sword "suspicious", - and wanted to suggest what you would RATHER have, I'd be very happy to do some swapping with you. What do you like?

Peter

[Jacques]

  On 4/18/2021 at 11:48 AM, Nobody said:

Actually there is no “国 (kuni)” just after Sendai in the mei.

—-> 仙臺住藤原国(包)

 

 

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I was talking about the Kuni of Kunikane, it's engraved in a wrong way.

[Robert Trend]

Thank you for advice having traced the signature thru Hawleys the Kuni being cut not quite correct was my reason for asking for your help

I puchased this  sword unseen with a very chipped edge and high polish to blade no hada  visable  but with a lovely O kissaki and very nice futatsu hi

 My  intention was to use it for iaido  however when i saw the signature and the rust age of tsuka i felt a need to seek advice

having now polished a couple of windows masame is starting to show, the hamon is wide enough to allow chip removal

here are some photos sorry i am not good with pictures

Thankyou all

 

[Brian]

Robert,
The FASTEST way to exit this forum is to discuss, promote, or participate in amateur polishing. Anyone who has been around a little bit here knows that. Do NOT do it, and do not discuss it.
That's a fine looking sword. Don't screw it up.

[Robert Trend]

thanks your reply is what i normally get , please read my profile before you jump to conclusions

i will send you pictures of the finished article, then i will willingly accept your advice

previous early work  damaged worthless blade no one wanted

 

[Stephen]

Your profile? Location?

[ROKUJURO]

  On 4/18/2021 at 5:12 PM, Robert Trend said:

..... however when i saw the signature and the rust age of tsuka i felt a need to seek advice....

 

 

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There is certainly no rust on the TSUKA, but you probably mean NAKAGO.

[NewB]

  On 4/18/2021 at 6:31 PM, Robert Trend said:

thanks your reply is what i normally get , please read my profile before you jump to conclusions

i will send you pictures of the finished article, then i will willingly accept your advice

previous early work  damaged worthless blade no one wanted

 

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Looks great. You polished that yourself?

 

Cheers

 

John

[Mark]

you ask us to see your profile.  It says:

 

an amateur sword polisher (4 yrs) after 40 years metal fabrication and vehicle refinishing experience. member of token society. Iaido instructor

 

Brian is a nice guy but please pay attention to his message. 

[Brian]

No..I'm not a nice guy. I just play one for the purposes of online interaction.
I'm too tired to even go into this again. Every guy is like a stuck record:
1- I polish my own stuff

2- We tell you we don't tolerate amateur polishing here
3- You tell us how you are different, how you know what you are doing and how you polish stuff no-one else wants to
4- We point out that what you think is good, removes metal, ruins lines, opens or closes grain and does no-one any favours

5- You come back indignantly and tell us how your 5 years of welding or plumbing gives you experience

6- We ask what you know about kantei, and are you able to kantei before you polish, in order to bring out what should be shown

7- You admit you cannot kantei, and fall back on the "I'm saving ruined swords" plea

8- We point out that you are not qualified to tell what is ruined or not, and that after your work, the swords now need another polish

9- You leave in a huff, refusing to take the advice first given and just shut up about amateur polishing.

This will be the 20th time? 30th time? Gets monotonous. Decide if you want to just agree to drop the subject, or if you want to go for the ban.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Brian,

Great post. Would it be worth pinning that somewhere so that people get the message?

[ChrisW]

I agree. Should this be made into the new site banner?

 

Never fails to piss me off when people talk about polishing Japanese swords, as if they know a darn thing about it.

 

I'd be tempted to alert whatever local society he is part of, that he is an amateur polisher.

[ROKUJURO]

In my opinion, this is a bit sad. We have here someone who obviously likes NIHONTO and has tried to gather some knowledge about them. He even cared to try to learn about TOGI, which in my opinion is a hint to sincere interest in the subject.

On the other side, we are devoted to stay with traditional care and preservation, and amateur polishing is absolutely not one of the pillars.

I wished we could convince these people about the 'good' way without pushing them out. The NMB has so much to give and to teach, and these amateurs have probably a good base and some love for NIHONTO, so they should stay with us and enjoy what we have to offer. 

[Brian]

I have yet to see ONE of them that doesn't push back and argue, and just agrees to drop the topic and listen to reason.
Also always amused that a Japanese apprentice takes 6 years plus FULL TIME to learn to polish. But amateurs think a few hours a week for a few years is enough.
No Jean, I don't have patience for this anymore, unless the guys accept the fact that it is not acceptable, and agree to study Nihonto and not how to ruin them.
This isn't anything directed at Robert specifically. I hope he'll agree to disagree and get back to looking at his sword. But this topic comes up too often.
I'd say 3/4 of the swords in SA have had the acid treatment and amateur restoration.
 

[ChrisW]

That's truly abhorrent and sad to hear.

[Stephen]

Hang tough Boss...only another forty to fifty years to go.

[Robert Trend]

Thank you gentlemen for your advice i wonder if anyone has thought of what happens to rusted or damaged blades not worth the cost of expensive polishing

shall we just scrap them or maybe allow an some one willing to put the hours in learn to save them , you never know he may just find something worth

saving not everyone uses acid or a sander, some of use follow the traditional path with traditional stones

I have no doubt  that some of you repair your own cars if your good enough to do that without proper training what makes you so different

Thank you Darkon for at least looking at my work and yes i did polish this, its signed Shigeuki now not rusting away in a garage some where

I would ask once more for you assistance gentlemen this is an unsigned wakizashi : would you pay to have it polished, use it in the garden,  leave it to rot in the corner, or let an amateur polisher attempt to polish it ?

i hope you will all be willing to answer this as openly as you pass comment

 

[Stephen]

Bobby Bobby Bobby you just don't get it. No words I can say that will change your mind.

 

None of the above. Oiled proper storage and saved. Saved for the right person who will do the right thing.

[NewB]

  On 4/19/2021 at 6:18 PM, Robert Trend said:

Thank you gentlemen for your advice i wonder if anyone has thought of what happens to rusted or damaged blades not worth the cost of expensive polishing

shall we just scrap them or maybe allow an some one willing to put the hours in learn to save them , you never know he may just find something worth

saving not everyone uses acid or a sander, some of use follow the traditional path with traditional stones

I have no doubt  that some of you repair your own cars if your good enough to do that without proper training what makes you so different

Thank you Darkon for at least looking at my work and yes i did polish this, its signed Shigeuki now not rusting away in a garage some where

I would ask once more for you assistance gentlemen this is an unsigned wakizashi : would you pay to have it polished, use it in the garden,  leave it to rot in the corner, or let an amateur polisher attempt to polish it ?

i hope you will all be willing to answer this as openly as you pass comment

 

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I think both of you have valid points But considering we are talking about nihonto the assumption always should be, go the traditional way with a togishi that has lived there and that has been supervised throughout the process by the master polisher!

 

No wonder most of them are experts in appraising and authenticating .. 

 

I believe we have to agree to disagree and keep it all away from any further complications. 

 

I would always support people that try to do good rather than harm but unfortunately most that attempt to 'restore' nihonto usually end up destroying it and that is the worst possible outcome. 

 

Just my point of view!

 

Regards,

 

John

[Jacques]

Robert, 

 

  Quote

i wonder if anyone has thought of what happens to rusted or damaged blades not worth the cost of expensive polishing

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Knowing whether a sword is worth restoring or not requires a lot of knowledge, which you obviously do not have. 

[ChrisW]

  On 4/19/2021 at 6:53 PM, Jacques D. said:

Robert, 

 

 

Knowing whether a sword is worth restoring or not requires a lot of knowledge, which you obviously do not have. 

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THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES OVER!

You do NOT have the expertise to diagnose a blade. You do NOT have the training to restore one. And finally, comparing cars and nihonto is erroneous in nearly every way. Nihonto require far more special care because you cannot simply replace a part of a blade as it is one piece of highly-sensitive metal. There are manuals to repair vehicles and there is a large degree to which error is permissible to still have a functioning item; this is not the case with nihonto, every micrometer of steel that is removed is a layer that cannot be restored/replaced. If you screw up by a millimeter with a car, its often fine; do that with nihonto and it could very well be ruined or require EVEN more metal to be removed to put it as the swordsmith intended.

The proper answer for any out of polish nihonto is to properly oil and store it until the day comes for it to be restored or passed onto the next set of hands that may either care for it or have the proper work done. There is no wiggle room here: treat it with respect and preserve it.

Here is a challenge for you Robert: take all your butchered self-cared blades to a proper togishi and let them give you feedback on what you've done; then hopefully you'll see the error of your ways.

[Stephen]

You all know the more we get upset the more he enjoys it.

[Bazza]

There are none so blind ...

 

BaZZa.