Mantetsu ?

[Alex1984]

Hello, can you please tell me if this is an original sword? And if it is possible help to translate what is written on the box and two pieces of rag? Did Mantetsu have such a hamon?

[Alex1984]

I don't know the number on the back. I will ask a friend to send me a photo.

[lonely panet]

 a mantetsu in sanbon sugi???? not seen that ??? 

[PNSSHOGUN]

This looks like a Komonjo fake from Japan. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Alex, get both the serial number on the back and a photo of the date. If they don’t lineup correctly we know it’s a fake. However, I’ve seen two of these and they had an appropriate serial number for the year. So if they are fakes, they’re smart enough to know how to date them to match the serial number. But let’s try to find out shall we?

 

This is the fourth one I’ve seen now, but it is a bit unique with the “Ren” stamp.  I will have to check my records but I’m pretty darn sure that there are no Ren stamps on Koa Isshin blades.  I am on the road, but will check when I get home. They may have finally made a fatal mistake. Plus, the Ren stamp looks hand chiseled and not a stamp at all. It should be a stamp.

[Bruce Pennington]

I would be interested to learn what is written on the box as well.

[SteveM]

日本刀一振南満州鉄道株式会社

所有主　阿部文雄

 

Nihontō hitofuri Minami Manshū Tetsudō Kabushikikaisha

Shoyūnushi Abe Fumio

 

Japanese sword (one) South Manchurian Railway Corporation

Owner: Fumio ABE 

 

The cloth tags also belong to Fumio Abe, and give his address and the name of a neighborhood association (presumably near where he lived). The address is Motobuto in Urawa (close to Tokyo). Urawa is a fairly major town. The section of Motobuto is still there, but the address system changed, so you'd have to find an old map to pinpoint the location.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Also the mounts are suspect, can't ever recall seeing an example with the leather retention strap.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Alex,

Please tell whoever it is with the sword to wipe the blade where he is holding it in your 2nd to last picture.  Acid in his sweat is slowly but surely etching his fingerprints into the surface.  Never touch the polished portion of the blade.

Grey

[BANGBANGSAN]

Maybe 偽銘？Also, the Hamon doesn't look right to me, I knew there are a few special order Mantetsu has wavy Hamon, but not like this.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I wonder what the date is as well, those mounts are the later war type of fairly low quality.

[Alex1984]

  On 4/13/2021 at 11:12 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Alex, get both the serial number on the back and a photo of the date. If they don’t lineup correctly we know it’s a fake. However, I’ve seen two of these and they had an appropriate serial number for the year. So if they are fakes, they’re smart enough to know how to date them to match the serial number. But let’s try to find out shall we?

 

This is the fourth one I’ve seen now, but it is a bit unique with the “Ren” stamp.  I will have to check my records but I’m pretty darn sure that there are no Ren stamps on Koa Isshin blades.  I am on the road, but will check when I get home. They may have finally made a fatal mistake. Plus, the Ren stamp looks hand chiseled and not a stamp at all. It should be a stamp.

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Good afternoon Bruce. The katana is signed on one side of the nakago. There are no marks on the back on top of the blade. And this already separates the subject from the original

[Alex1984]

The owner says that the sword was bought at an auction in Japan. I had doubts about the originality of this sword. If it is a fake, then it is of very good quality.

[PNSSHOGUN]

There is no doubt in my mind this is a fake. This group takes original Gunto and adds various Mei of valuable smiths and makers, they come up for auction on Yahoo.jp very often.

[Alex1984]

  On 4/14/2021 at 7:16 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

There is no doubt in my mind this is a fake. This group takes original Gunto and adds various Mei of valuable smiths and makers, they come up for auction on Yahoo.jp very often.

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It is very disappointing that there are such people. And this was done by a knowledgeable person. 

[vajo]

A very well made fake Mantetsu. As i looked on it i thought wow. But the mukden stamp is missing and mukden was engraved. If you look on the place and signature engraving  the place and size is not correct. And the whole shape of the sword is not that a mantetsu should look like. I see this now after reading the topic! And this is what i learned.

 

But overall it makes fear, with the fittings and the box how much criminal energy is there to blame people. Good to have so highly trained members here with John, Trystan, Bruce, Steve and others. 

 

Alex my compliment to show it here. I'm not sure i think if the price where low i had bought it and get blamed.

[Alex1984]

  On 4/14/2021 at 8:02 AM, vajo said:

A very well made fake Mantetsu. As i looked on it i thought wow. But the mukden stamp is missing and mukden was engraved. If you look on the place and signature engraving  the place and size is not correct. And the whole shape of the sword is not that a mantetsu should look like. I see this now after reading the topic! And this is what i learned.

 

But overall it makes fear, with the fittings and the box how much criminal energy is there to blame people. Good to have so highly trained members here with John, Trystan, Bruce, Steve and others. 

 

Alex my compliment to show it here. I'm not sure i think if the price where low i had bought it and get blamed.

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immediately felt that something was wrong with this sword. Such things need to be shown so that people do not spend a lot of money on such things. Unfortunately, there are more and more fakes.

[Leen]

I thought I recognized it, it’s on a Dutch eBay like site. Marktplaats. I also doubted it,  very well made and on the other hand. To many red flags. But people are bidding like crazy on marktplaats.

[Jean]

Thanks guys for the analysis. It shows why NMB is invaluable.👍

[Alex1984]

  On 4/14/2021 at 8:23 AM, Leen said:

I thought I recognized it, it’s on a Dutch eBay like site. Marktplaats. I also doubted it,  very well made and on the other hand. To many red flags. But people are bidding like crazy on marktplaats.

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Yes comrade! Exactly. And I know the seller, he also collects Japanese swords. I do not think that he is not aware of its originality)).

[Brian]

Has that top right kanji been placed deliberately right on top of a Seki stamp to disguise the fact that it's a Showato?

[Ed]

The top right stamp is the "Nan" Army arsenal stamp.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yeah, I have to back-track on my statement about them normally being stamped.  I've surveyed the 22 Nan's and while they are done so well that from a glance, they look stamped, the are actually chiseled (or whatever tool they do that with) in.  Here is a comparison.  The fake is in the center.  Can't say and "always" on this, but the legit ones seem to cut the side lines bottom-up so the pointy end joins at the "shoulder" giving it a rounded look.  The fake started at the top of the shoulders.

 

Also, the file lines on the legit blades seem fatter.

 

I have 5 of these (6 now) on file, all dated: 1940, 1941x2, 1942, 1944.  The '44 has no serial number either.  One has a Colonel attribution, and one a Lt Gen.  We've previously done a "kantei" on these fakes and are bothered by the mei differences (though all quite close).  And like I mentioned earlier, NONE of our Nan-stamped blades are Koa Isshin.  I'm adding this one to the file.  Who knows, someday we may find a document or letter describing their custom Mantetsu.  But until then, the scales tilt toward fakery.

[Brian]

I'm not 100% comfortable calling this fake. We know there are good fakes of everything out there. But we don't have any decent proof of this one.
Still...the hamon is odd, and likely not made as he others were. That hamon says Showato to me. So really not sure either way.

[Bruce Pennington]

I wish we had someone that knew these boxes.  Might run the box and cloth by Nick to see what he thinks.  The cloth, to me, looks like it has age.  He's commented on authenticity of items like this before.

[Leen]

Still the nan in Bruce’s post are markedly different. My Koa isshin also has no nan, and....is dated

[PNSSHOGUN]

  On 4/14/2021 at 1:30 PM, Brian said:

I'm not 100% comfortable calling this fake. We know there are good fakes of everything out there. But we don't have any decent proof of this one.
Still...the hamon is odd, and likely not made as he others were. That hamon says Showato to me. So really not sure either way.

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It is a real WWII Showato.....with a fake Mei. 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 4/14/2021 at 1:37 PM, Leen said:

Still the nan in Bruce’s post are markedly different. My Koa isshin also has no nan, and....is dated

 

 

 

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Thanks Leen.  The Nan doesn't show up until 1943, so yours wouldn't have had one anyway.

 

I've posted the box and cloth over on Warrelics.  Let's see if anyone has any thoughts on them, either way.

 

One of the problems I have with a few of these is that they are being sold on commission by Komonjo from someone in Japan.  And 2 of those had serial numbers within 4 digits of each other (1941 Ka 228 and Ka 232).  I know that happens in Collector-World but just seems too coincidental, and both are wavy hamon.  And all of them showing up in ... what ... the past year or so?

 

I'm keeping on open mind.

[Leen]

Well it seems a nice mystery. PNSSHOGUN s hypotheses sounds very probable (of that is correct English 😃)

[Moley]

  On 4/14/2021 at 1:43 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

It is a real WWII Showato.....with a fake Mei. 

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and IMHO quite a nice item in itself. So I would like to ask why bother going to all that trouble and expense to add the box (Which I think is also nice), the cloths and the Mei.

How much MORE money would they have made faking it as a Mantetsu ? What do good Mantetsu go for ?  £2,000 approx ??????