Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

[Kiipu]

On 4/6/2021 at 7:53 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

2. Kanemitsu, 1944, no star, no stamps, "1" on fittings ..... But 24 on nakago

 

Slough on page 49 illustrates a star-stamped Kanemitsu with the same style of sideways placement of the number.  In this case, the number is 118.

Obverse: ☆　竹内兼光　118 = ☆ Takeuchi Kanemitsu 118.

Reverse: 昭和十九年三月 = March 1944.

Nakago mune:  Unreported.

Tang holes: 2.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Kanemitsu 118

Thanks, got that one!

[Kiipu]

On 8/3/2021 at 4:52 PM, Kiipu said:

I thought I would elaborate a little more on this prefecture numbering system.

 

Below are the last two observed prefixes.

 

関東 Kantō Area

ク KU = Gunma Prefecture　群馬縣. The katakana character グ GU is based upon the katakana character ク KU.  In this case, the KU was substituted for GU.

 

中部　Chūbu Area

タ TA = Niigata　新潟県.

[Kiipu]

On 8/10/2021 at 8:19 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Found one more smith with Tokyo First (東京第一陸軍造兵廠)

正武  Masatake, 昭和十九年六月 (1944 June) #644,Type 98, no star.

 

I found some additional pictures of this sword and they can be seen at the link below.

九八式軍刀拵入.東京第一陸軍造兵廠.正武.昭和十九年六月吉日.644.

[Bruce Pennington]

Odd.  I can pull up the pictures on the website on my iPhone but not on my Windows laptop.

 

I do think I see the star you're seeing Thomas.

[Kiipu]

15 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I do think I see the star you're seeing Thomas.

 

I had to use Microsoft Edge browser to view the webpage and it took awhile to load.  Upon downloading the pictures, there is no star stamp.

[Kiipu]

Two more Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal swords to report, serial numbers 105 and 218.  Serial number 105 looks to have two star stamps.  Special thanks to @Jim Manley and @Bencld for providing the information linked to below.

Kuniie’s

[Kiipu]

On 8/11/2021 at 1:38 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Thank you much for that info, it's just what I was looking for.

 

This is what I have so far.  Anyone have any ideas about the unknowns?

東一造 忠彰　?

東一造 道義　?

井口昭貞　Iguchi Akisada.

東一造 忠和　Tadakazu.

東一造 國隆　Kunitaka.

東一造 勝信　Katsunobu

東一造 尚武　Naotake.

東一造 行範　?

東一造 正武　Masatake

東一造 守國　Morikuni.

東一造 國紹　?

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:02 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

宣威 Nobutaka.

I have blades with this mei listed as "Nobutaka" and as "Nobutake"  -- is this the same?

 

Thomas, I don't see 東一造宣威 Nobutak(a)(e) on that list.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I have blades with this mei listed as "Nobutaka" and as "Nobutake"  -- is this the same?

 

Thomas, I don't see 東一造宣威 Nobutak(a)(e) on that list.

@Bruce Pennington

宣威 (Nobutake) is the name 吉原國家 ( Yoshihara Kuniie)use when he worked in Tokyo first.He also use 昭廣（Akihiro).

On Ohmura's :各工廠 (造兵廠) 鍛練所で専属嘱託刀匠に依り作刀された鍛錬刀 (茎に刀匠銘と造兵廠標章刻印)
  東京砲兵工廠: 横山祐包・森岡政吉、東京第一陸軍造兵廠: 吉原宣威 (昭廣・國家同人)、大阪工廠(造兵廠): 月山貞勝・貞一
  (二代) ・貞重・正清、小倉工廠(造兵廠):  白龍子忠孝・平貞重・兼延、 旧兵器廠 善平 他

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks to a tip from @Stephen, got another Matsu stamped blade.  It's made by Kiyokuni (RJT), dated Feb 1943, stamped Matsu 16.  Kiyokuni worked in Nagano, so the 2nd blade, now, from nagano:

Matsu

 

1941, July	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	106  (RS ana)	Trotter Survey
1941, Sep	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	249  Type 98	Trotter Survey
1941, Sep	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	308  Type 98	Trotter Collection
1941, Dec	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	566  RS Model	Windy NMB
?	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 61 RS	Trotter Survey
?	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 97	NMB
1942, Feb	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 542 RS star	Trotter Survey
1942, Apr	Niigata	Munetoshi	松 11 RS	Trotter Survey
1942, Nov	Niigata	Munetoshi	松 422 ? star	Trotter Survey
1942, Nov	Niigata	Munetoshi	松 433 RS star	Trotter Survey
1942, Oct	Niigata	Munetoshi	松 451 RS	Davidequis NMB
1942, Dec	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 577 RS star	MacTheWhopperNMB
1943, Jan	Niigata	Munetoshi	松 508 Type 98 star	Trotter Survey
1943, Feb	Nagano	Kiyokuni (RJT)	松 16	Ray Singer, NMB
1943, Feb	Nagano	Chikafusa (RJT)	松 20	Bangbangsan,NMB
1943, Mar	Niigata	Akihisa	松 618 RS star	Schmucker Collection
1943, Mar	Niigata	Akihisa	松 819 RS star	Vajo, Trotter Survey
1943, May	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 1080 RS star	Trotter Collection, イ403 on fittings
1943, May	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 1082 RS star	baldi1942 NMB
1943, Oct	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	松 1377 RS star	Trotter Survey
1943, Nov	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	松 443 RS star	? NMB
1944, Feb	Tsugaru/Aomori	Kunishiro (RJT)	オ 154, star	Trotter Survey
1944, Mar	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	タ2353 Type 98 star	Trotter Survey
1942-1945 (ND)	Niigata	Masakazu (RJT)	フ 37 RS star	IJASWORDS

[Sunny]

On 6/26/2021 at 9:02 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Well @george trotter, PaulB just added a "ア" number, Kanyyoshi, Akita prefecture, ア837, on THIS THREAD.

ooohhh so swords with numbers at the bottom of the tang are legit.

Thanks for all the hard work you're putting into this research and sharing Bruce.

It's very much appreciated.

[Sunny]

I Didn't realize just how vast ,different and how many WW2 blades there are.

It's almost overwhelming just thinking about it.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Steven Edmund said:

vast ,different and how many WW2 blades

It is estimated that over 300 smiths in Seki alone, so maybe 450+ smiths in the country were working during the war, and over 2 million swords were made.  Lots of room for variation in that!  To the point of variations from mil specs, as much as some hardliners would like to say it couldn't happen, we've seen enough proof that private shops and individual soldiers both tended to stray in their efforts for a personal touch.  Same for the smiths.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:39 AM, Kiipu said:

Do you a have a picture showing the entire reverse side of the nakago?  Also, are there any markings on the nakago mune?

Update on Leo's Akimitsu with different numbers painted on the nakago than the stamped numbers.  The fittings are stamped "51" matching the painted numbers.  The first "6" was erased, leaving "51".  So I quite convinced the stamped numbers are NOT fittings shop numbers, but rather Army numbers, probably something to do with the RJT program.

 

Thomas, we didin't discuss the mune. I will ask about that and follow up on it.

[Bruce Pennington]

Came across another Gunma blade.  A Sep 1943, star-stamped Kanetsugu - ク162 Star. In RS fittings.

Found HERE on Wehrmacht-Awards.

1943, Sep	Gunma	Kanetsugu (RJT)	ク162 Star	Jumper, W-A RS
1944, Jan	Gunma	Kanetsugu (RJT)	ク306	Edward Mahle, NMB
1945, Feb	Gunma	Kanetsugu (RJT)	938	Antiqueimperialarts
1944, Jul	Gunma	Tsugunobu (RJT)	ク70-5 Star	OhmuraBook pg 167 RS

[Kiipu]

The initial Type 100 swords appear to have been serialized as follows.

• Starless Type 100s, serial number range 106 to 798, dated July 1941 to January 1942, serial number is upside-down.
• Starless Type 100s, serial number range 1129 to 1301, dated April 1942 to May 1942, normal serial number.
• ☆ [star] stamped Type 100s, serial number range 1525 to 2128, dated August 1942 to April 1943.

It seems that the serialization switched to the prefecture system after this date.

 

Do you have nakago pictures of the "Ryuu" dated May 1942, serial number 1301?

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kiipu

[Kiipu]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:03 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

This Kanetsugu is May 1942, but no star, yet numbered the "RJT" way.

 

Below is the translation.

Obverse: 昭和十七年五月　1220 = May 1942, serial number 1220.

Reverse: 群馬今井兼継 = Gunma Imai Kanetsugu.

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Do you have nakago pictures of the "Ryuu" dated May 1942, serial number 1301?

 

These serial numbers seem to continue where the upside-down serialized starless Type 100s stopped.

Starless Type 100s, serial numbers 106 to 798, July 1941 to January 1942, serial number upside-down.

Starless Type 100s, serial numbers 1129 to 1220, April 1942 to May 1942.

Starred ☆Type 100s, serial numbers 1525 to 2128, August 1942 to April 1943.

Here ya go Thomas.  I'm sorry, but I've had a couple, and I'm going to have to re-read your train of thought in the morning.  I really hope you're working on a book, because we'd all REALLY benefit from any book you'd put out!

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Obverse: 昭和十七年五月　1220 = May 1942, serial number 1220.

I'm drinking coffee as fast as I can, but I can't see what you're working out here, sorry!

[Kiipu]

Thanks Bruce.  Below is the translation of the tang for your records.

Obverse: 龍宇作　1301 = Ryū’u saku, serial number 1301.

Reverse: 昭和十七年五月 = May 1942.

 

I have revised the post above about observed Type 100 serial number ranges to include serial number 1301.

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, Kiipu said:

• Starless Type 100s, serial number range 106 to 798, dated July 1941 to January 1942, serial number is upside-down.
• Starless Type 100s, serial number range 1129 to 1301, dated April 1942 to May 1942, normal serial number.
• ☆ [star] stamped Type 100s, serial number range 1525 to 2128, dated August 1942 to April 1943.

Ok, head's clear now.  Quite an interesting observation. I appreciate that.  Too systematic to be random fitter shop stamps.  Adds weight to my feeling they are Army numbers, for some reason.

[george trotter]

Hi guys,

I think I must have missed something....what is a Type 100?

 

I can't remember hearing of this 'Type' before - I ask because a sword I own by Masakazu of Koriyama Fukushima dated 17/4 has the number 1129 stamped into the date side tip of the tanf.

 

I thought I had an RS mounted sword  with a polishing shop contract number...but apparently it is "an army number".

 

Can someone tell me what's what please?...sorry to be a dopey old geezer who must have "missed a discussions" on NMB.

 

Thanks...

[Bruce Pennington]

7 minutes ago, george trotter said:

what is a Type 100?

He's referring to the the Rinji seishiki, George.  There was no "type" designation for that Type 98 variant. 

[Kiipu]

4 hours ago, george trotter said:

I think I must have missed something....what is a Type 100?

 

You can read all about it at the mistitled thread below.  The thread covers the introduction of the Type 94, 98, & 100.

Introduction of the Type 94 Gunto

[vajo]

Thomas, Nick call himself a "not sword collector".

So i don't know why we now have inflating words for a Type3 sword.

 

- 1944 Naval Landing sword

- Type 3

- Type 100

- Rinji Seishiki or

- RS

- Special Forces sword

- Japanese Airborne sword

 

Nick Komiya "And like Type 98s there naturally would be luxury versions and barebones versions even for a sword conceived as a poor man's version."

RussM "1940 Army Contingency Sword"

Nick Komiya " I thought "1940 variant" would be neutral enough"..."Kind of like introducing a stripped down version of a car as a "Sports" or "Rally" version."

 

Now many say RS to a Type3 but if someone don't follow that discussion could not find out what RS means.

If you want to sell such a sword and write "Selling a RS 1944 Gendaito" The guy would think - What?

 

Btw. The type3 koshirae follows the design of a higo koshirae.

 

 

 

[Kiipu]

Thanks Chris, I still remember your excellent post about the merits of the Type 100 [1940] versus the Type 98 [1938].  It was and still is an excellent summary of the advantages of the new design, whatever one decides to call it!

 

For those that are lost and meandering in the wastelands of NMB, here is the quote and the link.

 

Quote

The Type 3 has some minor improvements for the battlefield.

- 2 mekugi (one screw, one bamboo peg)

- a dust protection kuchi-gane

- iron tsuba

- a silence kabuto-gane without a sarute

- and if you like a lacquered tsuka ito that didn't get wet.

Timeline Type 3 Gunto

Edited February 16, 2022 by Kiipu

[vajo]

Overall the design of a Type3, Type 100... wasn't new. Its a very old design. Its sad that so less old battlefield koshirae didn't exist. But we all know that the warriors of ancient Japan didn't go to a battle with gold and silver shining koshirae. They used simple and functional mountings mostly with iron fittings that didn't broke for a long time staying in battle. Someone here wrote the poor ashigaru often steal expensive swords from samurai. I don't know if it is true but its hard for me not to belive this. The type3 is in my eyes an excellent design, much better than a Type98. But the Type95 design is superior in my eyes for a war. Sometimes it has stoped a bullet 

[george trotter]

OK, thanks for that update on the "Type 100"...I remember reading some of those docs...but must have missed going back and reading the later added ones.

I thought the RS was never 'proclaimed' by Imperial Edict so was not a Type

 

SO...if RS is called by the Army a Type 100 (1940 in the Koki calendar 2600).

 

What is the consensus on NMB...RS?...Type 100?...and reason?

 

Sorry to be a pest.

 

[Stephen]

6 hours ago, george trotter said:

What is the consensus on NMB...RS?...Type 100?...and reason?

 

 

Well the military guys here God (Nick K) has spoken so they bow to their leader.

To the rest of the world its type 3.

Outside the mark and here anyone would say what? 

Ask for one at a gun show like SOS see what ya get.