Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

[Brian]

8 hours ago, John C said:

Did you guys see this article on Sword Encyclopedia.com? The author, Jolene Sims, states the star on a blade is an indicator that tamahagane was not used, but rather puddled steel. 

https://swordencyclopedia.com/world-war-2-Japanese-swords/

 

She's very wrong. There can be no debate about this, the Japanese documents are clear about this, and old info needs to be updated.

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, John C said:

Okay. Thank you. I was getting it confused with the "Na" mark in relation to Nagoya.

John C.

John,

When the Army assumed control of sword production 1942, the Nagoya Arsenal was using the "Na" stamp. In '43, that's almost the only stamp we see. For an unknown reason, in '44, they switched to the small Seki stamp.  At this same time ('44) we see the appearance of the Gifu-in-sakura stamp, which I believe (theory) is what the Seki Manufactures Assoc. created when the Nagoya Arsenal commandeered their stamp.   But both Na and small Seki were Nagoya inspector stamps.

[Bruce Pennington]

21 hours ago, John C said:

Bruce:

I hate to ask and I apologize for being ignorant; but do we know why Western letters and numbers were used in addition to Japanese katakana and numbers?

John C.

There may be someone who has a better answer to this, like @mecox, @george trotter, or @Kiipu; but I believe it started in the late 1800's when Japan started Westernizing their military.  For reasons unknown (to me anyway), the practice continued throughout the war in varying degrees.  Look at SMR.  They began numbering their blades with Alpha/numerals in '38 (maybe '37, but haven't seen a '37 blade yet).  Then transitioned to Japanese kanji after that.  Don't know why.

[Bruce Pennington]

17 hours ago, mecox said:

Adding one more Star stamped RS
東京第一陸軍造兵廠 宣威  Tokyo first Army Arsenal  Nobutaka            昭和十七年十二月吉日 1942.12

 

Trystan,   I think this smith is   “Nobutake” (宣威), family name Yoshihara (吉原).

Thanks Mal, I've corrected my charts to read "Nobutake" instead of "Nobutaka."

 

15 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Yes, the smith is 吉原國家, he use 宣威 when he worked in Tokyo first.

Trystan,

In my chart, I have 2 Dec '42 Nobutake blades, numbered 47 and 49.  Do you have record of a 49, and if so, photos?  Or is the 49 a mistake?

[Bruce Pennington]

16 hours ago, John C said:

Did you guys see this article on Sword Encyclopedia.com? The author, Jolene Sims, states the star on a blade is an indicator that tamahagane was not used, but rather puddled steel. 

https://swordencyclopedia.com/world-war-2-Japanese-swords/

Agree with Brian.  I have to say I've never seen a source make that claim before.  I'm out of time, but when I get a chance, I'll send a message to the site letting them know about the error.

[BANGBANGSAN]

33 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Mal, I've corrected my charts to read "Nobutake" instead of "Nobutaka."

 

Trystan,

In my chart, I have 2 Dec '42 Nobutake blades, numbered 47 and 49.  Do you have record of a 49, and if so, photos?  Or is the 49 a mistake?

Bruce

The one I just post is #49.I own the #47.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:23 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Adding one more Star stamped RS
東京第一陸軍造兵廠 宣威  Tokyo first Army Arsenal  Nobutaka

昭和十七年十二月吉日 1942.12
Ser#49
Only 2 digit away from my #47

 

 

 

@Bruce Pennington

Check the last photo,#49 on the tang .

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

last photo,#49 on the tang .

Ah, thanks Trystan.  It's been a rough few days, here at home.  I logged it on the chart, but forgot to file the photos.  Got it now.

[John C]

15 hours ago, Brian said:

She's very wrong.

My point exactly. Could you imagine, however, some poor kid trying to write a book report or somebody researching to buy a sword coming across this type of information? They'll believe it.

John C.

[Kaseca]

Hello NMB members. I stumbled on a sliver of info regarding the swordencyclopedia article.

This may be the source she cited as it was published earlier: https://blademag.com/knife-history/Japanese-war-swords-part-i

[John C]

1 hour ago, Kaseca said:

This may be the source she cited

That article was written by "blade staff." Interesting that they do not cite any sources for their material. I always recommend (and made it mandatory for my students) to go to the original source and read it for yourself. Without any references or source material that can be checked, I would take the information with a huge grain of salt.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm a little shocked by the Blade magazine article.  Though the title says "By Blade Staff", just before the text, it says "by Leon Kapp."  Most of the paragraphs are from his book, Modern Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths from 1868 to Present, pages 64-71, published in 2002.  I had a running email conversation with him and Richard Fuller back in 2021 where he shared his surprise after personally polishing a star-stamped blade and deciding that the material must have been tamahagane.  I shared with them both the regulations we've all discovered about the RJT program and the use of the star stamp, and Leon agreed that star-stamped blades were traditionally made.  So this article, dated February 11, 2022, apparently authored by Leon is a puzzle.  Having only a tiny view behind the scenes of magazine publishing, thanks to @b.hennick and the JSSUS newsletter!), it's possible this article was actually written before our email conversation and it took several months before the Blade staff worked it into a published issue.  

 

It is also clear that Jolene Sim used Leon's article, even the photos, and paraphrased (dare I say plagiarized?) his work without reference.

 

Edit: Just finished contacting the Sword Encyclopedia staff, and have emailed Leon Kapp.  Will update when I get word back.

[Bruce Pennington]

Update:

Sword Encyclopedia replied and has sent my info to the editing/fact checking department.  Very interested in articles and writers to contribute further.  So, if anyone would like to add content, reach out to them.  I've sent them our articles on SMR, the souvenir, and Stamps.  All 3 are too big for their venue, but they will summarize and run the draft by me for approval before posting.

 

Leon Kapp wrote back and doesn't recall writing the article.  So, looks like  Blade mag staff did the write-up using Leon's stuff.  But the part about the star-stamped blades must have come from somewhere else, as it's not in Leon's book and Leon wouldn't have made that statement.  I don't see a way to contact the Blade editors, but have put a Comment post at the end of the article online.

[Brian]

No big mystery Bruce. Up to a few years ago, ALL stamps on a nakago were thought to indicate non traditional made.
It's no surprise. I think it was here on the NMB where the changes in info happened slowly over time, and the gradual unearthing of documents to back it up.
The change from "all stamps mean Showato" happened only in the past few years. I'm not in the least bit surprised at that article. Shows how guys like you and your "clan" have made a huge difference in the knowledge surrounding wartime swords. Certainly more than in Japan.

[BANGBANGSAN]

兼俊 Kanetoshi June 1941， looks like the star was added since the RJT sword won't have the star until 1942.

 

[Brian]

I don't think it was added. It's possible it was made then, but only issued or went through inspection in 1942?

[Kiipu]

4 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

兼俊 Kanetoshi, June 1941, looks like the star was added since the RJT sword won't have the star until 1942.

 

August 1942 is the earliest Star stamp I know off.  However, @Ganko gives February 1942 as the earliest observed star stamp.

Introduction to the Type 94, Type 98, & Type 100 Gunto

[Bruce Pennington]

I don't recall that we have a firm date the RJT program began.  "late 1941 or early 1942" is what I recall being said.  So, this June 1941 pushes that generalization, but after all, it is a generalization!  But Brian's proposal is certainly a possibility.

 

I have Ganko's Feb 42 and Mar 42 in the chart.  Now we have a June 41.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I don't recall that we have a firm date the RJT program began.  "late 1941 or early 1942" is what I recall being said.  So, this June 1941 pushes that generalization, but after all, it is a generalization!  But Brian's proposal is certainly a possibility.

 

I have Ganko's Feb 42 and Mar 42 in the chart.  Now we have a June 41.

I doubt this one starts with the star. Please compare the mei with the one in Slough's book, same smith same year, and month, but clearly with no star. The one with the star is in China, which has many guntos and bayonets modified, just to sale higher prices.

 

By Nick " 1942 July: The Army called upon each prefecture to solicit volunteers through these unions, who may be interested in getting into sword production. These messages from the military originated in the First Tokyo Army Arsenal and got passed onto the union through the Trade and Industry Dept. of the Prefectural government, and then from the union to its member smiths."

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/rikugun-jumei-tosho-rjt-star-stamped-blades-documentation-789067-6/  Post#54

 

From Ohmura: 陸軍は将校用軍刀の増産を図るため、昭和17年3月頃から各都道府県庁を通じ、そして各県は更に各地の鍛冶組合･金物組合或いは
刀工に軍への刀剣の製作納入希望者を募った。

[mecox]

For more information on (Murayama) Kanetoshi:

#21. 兼俊 Kanetoshi (村山 喜之一 Murayama Yoshinoichi) Born: Meiji 38 (1905) Aug 3; Reg. Showa 14 (1939) Oct 8. Deshi in 1937: 1.

1937:Kamo-gun, Tomita-mura, Hanyu. 1939: same address.

History: trained under father Murayama Kaneyuki (#30). Died February 23, 1978. Independent from Showa 9 (1934) with tanrenjo at Kamo-gun, Kamono-mura.

Summary: also trained under Niwa Kanematsu Kanenobu 兼信. In pre-war shinsakuto exhibitions won 3 Nyusen-sho, also Kinpai (Gold medal) and Daijin-sho (Ministers Award). 1940: 5th shinsakuto exhibition submitted long tachi (nagasa 115 cm) won recommendation.

1940: in tameshigiri section by Nakayama Hakudo his sword gained good review.

1941: 6th shinsakuto exhibition 2nd seat of 5.

Became Rikugun Jumei Tosho, also employed fulltime by Seki Token Kabushiki Kaisha.

Hawley: KAN 2632 JSS: p.70. Example mei: Kanetoshi 兼俊 Noshu Kanetoshi saku kore 濃州兼俊作之

[from NMB Download, Gifu 1937 Police report]

 

Also:  Fuller & Gregory, 1983 oshigata for Kanetoshi (#279) dated Showa 16 Gatsu 9 (1941, September)  no stamp.  Looks the same work as Slough (p.70) 1941, June.

[John C]

What does the blade look like? Does it look like a typical water quenched blade using tameshigiri or does it look like a well made oil quenched blade? Could say a lot about whether or not the star is legit.

John C.

p.s. probably just the camera angle, but the star looks a bit small and chunky relative to the size of the mekugi-ana.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

I doubt this one starts with the star. Please compare the mei with the one in Slough's book, same smith same year, and month, but clearly with no star. The one with the star is in China, which has many guntos and bayonets modified, just to sale higher prices.

 

By Nick " 1942 July: The Army called upon each prefecture to solicit volunteers through these unions, who may be interested in getting into sword production. These messages from the military originated in the First Tokyo Army Arsenal and got passed onto the union through the Trade and Industry Dept. of the Prefectural government, and then from the union to its member smiths."

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/rikugun-jumei-tosho-rjt-star-stamped-blades-documentation-789067-6/  Post#54

 

From Ohmura: In order to increase the production of military swords for officers, the Army began to solicit swords from around March 17 through each prefectural office, and each prefecture also solicited blacksmithing unions, hardware associations, or
swordsmiths in each region who wished to manufacture and deliver swords to the military.

A couple of thoughts, Trystan.  First, let me say it is certainly possible the star was placed there later than June of '41.  But simply because Slough shows a blade in the same month and year without one doesn't disprove the idea of the star being there in June '41.  As we well know, many RJT smiths sold swords on the civil market while they were working for the Army.

 

As to the Komiya and Ohmura quotes, the discussion was concerning increasing sword production and recruiting potential swordsmiths.  Nick had started the paragraph in 1939 and 1940.  In '40 each prefecture had their own trade unions, and he discussed how many smiths were just making kitchen knives.  So by July '42, the Army made a push to recruit those smiths, using the trade unions, into swordmaking.  None of the discussion refered to the establishment date of the RJT program.

[BANGBANGSAN]

昭和16(1941)年8月，昭久 Akihisa ,no star,in Rinji mount.New on the market.

 

[vajo]

something looks wrong in my eyes.. 

 

Tachi mei vs Katana mei?

 

If it was made for a gunto it should have Tachi mei. 

But this has Katana mei. 

 

btw the nakago looks cleaned.  The pictures are not good enough to say anything about the blade. Typical Showa22 sword.

 

Signature looks good.

 

 

---------------------------

to compare:

 

1943

 

 

late war 1944

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kiipu]

Trystan, the 将校軍刀監査委員会 was not established until February 1942.

JACAR C01005287100

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Trystan, the Officer Military Sword Audit Committee was not established until February 1942.

JACAR C01005287100

"Officer Military Sword Audit Committee" ?  What is this?

[vajo]

For the introduction of the Type3 Bruce?

[BANGBANGSAN]

兼俊 Kanetoshi， Feb 1945, star stamped in later brown metal scabbard Rinji mount.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

兼俊 Kanetoshi， Feb 1945, star stamped in later brown metal scabbard Rinji mount

Good one, Trystan!  Another example of a star blade in standard saya plus double chuso buttons.

[Bruce Pennington]

Another August, 1943 Zuiho.  Note the cloth sarute: