Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

[Kiipu]

Thanks Trystan!  Niigata Prefecture was really churning them out during the war.

越後住貞清　タ１５１８ = Echigo jū Sadakiyo TA-1518.

昭和十八年十月吉日 = A lucky day in October 1943.

越後住貞清 昭和十八年十月吉日

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

越後住貞清 Ser#タ1518 in Shirasaya, the star stamp is not very clear, but it seems located on the upper left of MekugiAna.

昭和十八年十月吉日( said on the register paper).

I don't have any photos of the dating side of the tang.

Sweet!  Trystan, does the paper mention the stamp?  I don't doubt it, but have a hard time seeing it.  In support, all the "TA" stamped blades from Niigata, so far, are star-stamped.

 

Great find!!

 

@John C chart updated

 

Guys might as well welcome John to the research team!  We have many who conscientiously whach out for us in our survey efforts, and I'm honestly honored.  John is jumping in with both feet.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Star stamped blade in Type 98 mount.No photo of the full tang of the maker side, I don't know if there is ser# .
八雲正清作
昭和十九年六月

 

[Kiipu]

☆　八雲正清作 = ☆ Yakumo Masakiyo saku.

昭和十九年六月 = June 1944.

 

Trystan, thanks for the above and below is another one for you to look at.

八雲正清作　昭和二十年三月

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington @Kiipu

Star stamped 濃州住 兼久 Kanehisa ，昭和十九年三月 March 1944 in Type 98 mount. The dating side of the tang has 名 mark. Do you guys think the star is original or added?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Trystan!

I'd say it's original.  The line of rust above it runs down into the grooves of the star and the stamp style looks correct.

 

I have 7 other star-stamped blades on file with "Na" stamps.  3 of them are on the side and 4 on the mune.  So that's not unusual either.

[Kiipu]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:09 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

Star stamped 濃州住兼久 Kanehisa

 

Found you another one to compare to.

☆　濃州兼久作 = ☆ Nōshū Kanehisa saku.

昭和十八年四月 = April 1943.

Type 3 1944 Pattern Shin Gunto Sword Pictorial: Show us your Type 3, Post #49

[mecox]

He was a good smith and in the 1937 Gifu list.  

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Here is a star stamped 兼上 Kanekami，昭和十九年十一月 1944.11， in Type 98 mount.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

兼上 Kanekami

That's a new one, Trystan.  Not on the RJT list and can't find him in Sesko or Slough.  He's listed in the JSI Showa Seki Tosho, so he's known, at least.

[mecox]

Bruce and Trystan,

there is some confusion with how name is read.  Sesko has:  KANETAKA (兼上), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – Kanetaka” (兼上), real name Kōketsu Genzaburō (纐纈 源三郎).   But may be more common to read as KANEKAMI.  

He was born July 8th 1899, student of Watanabe Kanenaga (渡辺兼永) in Seki.   He is in rikugun-jumei-tōshō list as Koketsu KANETAKA.  In 1942 tosho list of Kurihara read as Koketsu Kanekami  at 3rd/7 level,  Kihin no Retsu (Jo Saku).  In 1941 6th Exhibition as "Hanabusa KANETAKA" (Slough p. 215) at First Seat.   In the Seki registry of smiths, he registered on Showa 15 (1940) July 25 (age ~ 41), then was living in Seki, Takami-cho.     Died Dec 14, 1963.

[Bruce Pennington]

44 minutes ago, mecox said:

KANETAKA (兼上), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – Kanetaka” (兼上), real name Kōketsu Genzaburō (纐纈 源三郎).

Ahhh So!  Now I see that guy on the list.  I have some of his with Showa and Na stamps, but this is the first I have with the star.

 

Thanks guys!

[zentsuji2]

Bruce

I have a Hizen "Kanemoto "star stamped gendaito .Its dated 1943 with the NA stamp and another on the mune . The tsuba, seppas ,spring catch etc all marked T20 .

My pictures are too large to post here so  I tried sending them to your email with no success .Have you an alternate one so I can send thrm to you and maybe you can add them here .

Real interesting reading ,thanks all of you for taking the time to do this.

 

Ian

[Brian]

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=free+online+image+resizing

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, zentsuji2 said:

Bruce

I have a Hizen "Kanemoto "star stamped gendaito .Its dated 1943 with the NA stamp and another on the mune . The tsuba, seppas ,spring catch etc all marked T20 .

My pictures are too large to post here so  I tried sending them to your email with no success .Have you an alternate one so I can send thrm to you and maybe you can add them here .

Real interesting reading ,thanks all of you for taking the time to do this.

 

Ian

Sent a PM, Ian.  I appreciate getting your blade info.  I have some of his from Aug '44, so yours will be the first one from '43 on file.

[george trotter]

Just on the smith Kanetaka / Kanekami  I had a blade by him many decades ago. I made an oshigata but it is almost impossible to read so I won't post it, but here is what it said:

NOSHU SEKI JU GENSABURO KANETAKA SAKU.

It had no stamps that I can see and I did not oshigata the date side.

I just offer this here for information,

Regards...

[Bruce Pennington]

Here are the photos of Ian's blade - @zentsuji2 - It's actually September 1942, so 2 years earlier than the previously recorded blades.

[zentsuji2]

Thankyou Bruce for posting these ,really good of you.

Regards

Ian

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington @Kiipu

One more star stamped Rinji 

関兼秀作之 昭和十九年八月日

There is a small 関 marke between 和&十

 

[John C]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:33 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

One more star stamped Rinji 

@Bruce Pennington

Bruce: I read through this thread and I was wondering where we are on the painted RS blades without stamped serial numbers? I ask because it seems the green katakana "A" on the blade above corresponds with the blue western A on the number at the bottom of the nakago.

And in this case, the green number (80) corresponds with the stamped number 80 on the habaki. Does this in some way fit into the scheme of stamped serial numbers or is that a completely different tracking system?

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

5 hours ago, John C said:

@Bruce Pennington

Bruce: I read through this thread and I was wondering where we are on the painted RS blades without stamped serial numbers? I ask because it seems the green katakana "A" on the blade above corresponds with the blue western A on the number at the bottom of the nakago.

And in this case, the green number (80) corresponds with the stamped number 80 on the habaki. Does this in some way fit into the scheme of stamped serial numbers or is that a completely different tracking system?

John C.

Date side of tang--Grey/Blue paint 930
Smith side of tang--Green paint ア八0, Grey/Blue paint A 九三0。
ア八0（80）should be the assembly parts number. A903 should be the Nagoya arsenal rack number.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Adding one more Star stamped RS
東京第一陸軍造兵廠 宣威  Tokyo first Army Arsenal  Nobutaka

昭和十七年十二月吉日 1942.12
Ser#49
Only 2 digit away from my #47

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, John C said:

And in this case, the green number (80) corresponds with the stamped number 80 on the habaki. Does this in some way fit into the scheme of stamped serial numbers or is that a completely different tracking system?

 

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Date side of tang--Grey/Blue paint 930
Smith side of tang--Green paint ア八0, Grey/Blue paint A 九三0。
ア八0（80）should be the assembly parts number. A903 should be the Nagoya arsenal rack number.

John, the short answer is we don't know.  We have no documentary or interview evidence to explain these numbers.  We have 1 photo of women working in a factory with blades lined up with painted numbers, but that's it.  Trystan's idea is a plausible explanation, but it's just our educated guesswork.  Consider gunto with stamped numbers on metal fittings that match painted numbers on nakago.  Did the fitters do both numbers, or did the factory/arsenal paint the numbers and the fitters simply used the arsenal number on their fittings?  I see the latter option on Mantetsu, where there are stamped numbers on fittings that match the blade's serial number (I'll have to check the files on Mantetsu with painted numbers to see if there are matching numbers on the fittings to the painted one, but I want to say it is the case, implying the painted numbers were done by the fitters).  On the other hand, I've seen blades with double-painted numbers on nakago with 2 ana - implying that the blade had been re-fitted.  But what of the double-painted blades with only 1 ana?  Maybe Trystan is right and one set of numbers is done by the factory/arsenal and the second set by the fittings shop, regardless of number of ana.

 

So, options and opinions, but very little confirmed facts, sorry to say.

[John C]

4 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Nagoya arsenal rack number.

Trystan:

So just to clarify...this sword has the small Seki stamps on the date side and on the mune. Was the Nagoya factory in Seki? Or are those two separate things?

John C.

[John C]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

We have 1 photo of women working in a factory with blades lined up with painted numbers,

Bruce:

I hate to ask and I apologize for being ignorant; but do we know why Western letters and numbers were used in addition to Japanese katakana and numbers?

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, John C said:

Trystan:

So just to clarify...this sword has the small Seki stamps on the date side and on the mune. Was the Nagoya factory in Seki? Or are those two separate things?

John C.

John

The small 関 mark is 名古屋陸軍造兵廠熱田兵器製造所関工場 Nagoya Army Arsenal Atsuta Arms Factory Seki Factory's inspection mark.
名古屋陸軍造兵厰 熱田製造造所 Besides make Veihecals, Cannons, Rifles,Machineguns, Ammunition etc , they also make 九五式軍刀（Type 95 NCO Sword)、造兵刀(Zohei-to)、鍛鍊刀(Forged Blade).

[John C]

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Nagoya Army Arsenal Atsuta Arms Factory Seki Factory's inspection mark.

Okay. Thank you. I was getting it confused with the "Na" mark in relation to Nagoya.

John C.

[mecox]

Adding one more Star stamped RS
東京第一陸軍造兵廠 宣威  Tokyo first Army Arsenal  Nobutaka            昭和十七年十二月吉日 1942.12

 

Trystan,   I think this smith is   “Nobutake” (宣威), family name Yoshihara (吉原).

[John C]

Did you guys see this article on Sword Encyclopedia.com? The author, Jolene Sims, states the star on a blade is an indicator that tamahagane was not used, but rather puddled steel. 

https://swordencyclopedia.com/world-war-2-Japanese-swords/

 

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, mecox said:

Adding one more Star stamped RS
東京第一陸軍造兵廠 宣威  Tokyo first Army Arsenal  Nobutaka            昭和十七年十二月吉日 1942.12

 

Trystan,   I think this smith is   “Nobutake” (宣威), family name Yoshihara (吉原).

Mal

Yes, the smith is 吉原國家, he use 宣威 when he worked in Tokyo first.