Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, george trotter said:

if RS is called by the Army a Type 100

Maybe I missed that in the earlier discussions?  As I understand it, the Army made no distinct name for this variant.  "Types" were announced in an official Gazette, and to date, no such announcement has been uncovered, while the announcements for the other Types have been.

 

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Well the military guys here God (Nick K) has spoken so they bow to their leader.

To the rest of the world its type 3.

My approach has been to find out the facts.  Collectors (gun show attendees) have been calling this style a Type 3, a Marine Landing sword, etc, for years because they don't know what else to call it.  To communicate with each other about our stuff, we tend to need terms that others understand.  So nicknames, such as Type 3, Late-war officer sword, Marine Landing sword, are adopted.  It's impracticable  to have a discussion about the "strange Japanese officer gunto that isn't a Type 94 or 98, but has simplified fittings that are sometimes standard and simple yet sometimes customized and fancy" sword!

 

So, what are the facts?  The style was designed in 1938.  It was announced publicly (not in the Gazette) in 1940.  It was produced by using a loophole in the Type 98 authorization edict.  Name? None factually documented.  So, call it what you like.  Everyone else does! Ha!

[george trotter]

Ok, I'll stick to RS and  Rinji Seishiki Gunto.

 

I "used to be" a Type 3 guy Stephen but enough info has come out in a correct historic research way to prove that it was "snuck' into the sword production system as a sort of non-classified variant of the Type 98...called on paper the "Rinji Seishiki Gunto - Contingency Standard Type Army Sword" so from my point of view Rinji Seshiki (Contingency Standard Type) is the most appropriate name...also just RS. So, being a history accuracy buff, I had to drop "Type 3".

Regards,

 

[Stephen]

Yea brothers time march's on and me a gimp.

I'll catch up... maybe 🤔 lol.

[Bruce Pennington]

@george trotter - found another Munetoshi with a "TA" number, but I can't make out that last number.  TA 124?  I have a 1943 Akimitsu with TA 1246.  I WANT to say the last digit is a Japanese 7 "七".  What do you think?

[george trotter]

That's nice Bruce. Definitely 'ta' 1244 ,  18/7,  RJT star,    "squared" tang tip,  2 screws,  RS mounts,  and he uses his second 'toshi' character.

Nice find.

I have another listed on my sheet as same Munetoshi,   RJT star,   'ta' 2353,   dated 19/3,   1 screw,   mounts  RS,     and same "squared off' tang tip.

Good stuff.

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

RJT Star stamped blade in Type 98 mount

 

昭和十八年二月 1943 Feb
関关住兼友作 Seki Kanetomo
With Nagoya Arsenal 名 mark and Kokura First Factory inspection mark“ホ”。

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

関关住兼友作 Seki Kanetomo

That's a beauty Trystan!  I have only 1 other Kanetomo on file, a 1945, and it's a "Seki ..." also.  So, looking in Sesko's list, he has 2 WWII Kanetomo listed.  Oddly, the Gifu (Seki) one, Miwa Kanetomo, he doesn't have described as an RJT smith, while he does mention that for the Gunma smith.  Both are on the RJT list at Japaneseswordindex.com however.

[BANGBANGSAN]

36 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

That's a beauty Trystan!  I have only 1 other Kanetomo on file, a 1945, and it's a "Seki ..." also.  So, looking in Sesko's list, he has 2 WWII Kanetomo listed.  Oddly, the Gifu (Seki) one, Miwa Kanetomo, he doesn't have described as an RJT smith, while he does mention that for the Gunma smith.  Both are on the RJT list at Japaneseswordindex.com however.

He is in 昭和戦时下 军刀（昭和刀）関锻治刀匠名簿-兼友 三轮静夫 S14.10.20, and make Gunsui -to.

KANETOMO (兼友), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Miwa Kanetomo saku” (三輪兼友作), “Kanetomo” (兼友), real name Miwa Shizuo (三輪静夫), born March 31st 1916, student of Kojima Kanemichi (小島兼道), he worked as guntō smith and died July 27th 1994, jōkō no retsu (Akihide), Second Seat at the 6th Shinsaku Nihontō Denrankai (新作日本刀展覧会, 1941).

[BANGBANGSAN]

RS Blade

羽州天童住兵良直次
昭和十七年十一月日

Number 166

That's all the photos I have, don't know if there is a star stamp. 

NAOTSUGU (直次), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Yamagata – “Naotsugu” (直次), real name Kobayashi Naomatsu (小林直松), he was born in the 13th year of Meiji (明治, 1880) and worked later as rikugun-jumei-tōshō, jōkō no retsu (Akihide), Second Seat at the 6th Shinsaku Nihontō Denrankai (新作日本刀展覧会, 1941), Akihide lists him once more, under his real name Kobayashi Naomatsu and as ryōkō no retsu.

[Kiipu]

It appears 東京第一陸軍造兵廠 Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal did not use a katakana prefix in the beginning for the prefectures and instead started with just a sequential number for each.  At some point, they realized that this was confusing having so many sequential numbers and started adding a katakana prefix to them.  I have noted this so far for 秋田縣 Akita Prefecture and 山形縣 Yamagata Prefecture.

 

Yamagata Prefecture　山形縣

166　羽州天童住兵良直次作　Ushū Tendō jū Heiryō Naotsugu saku.

マ431　☆　出羽国住月山宗光　Dewa kuni jū Gassan Munemitsu.

マ554　☆　羽州住兵良直政作　Ushū jū Heiryō Naomasa saku.

マ894　☆　羽州山形住和合貞友作　Ushū Yamagata jū Wagō Sadatomo saku.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

 

 

Yamagata Prefecture　山形縣

166　羽州天童住兵良直次作　Ushū Tendō jū Heiryō Naotsugu saku.

マ431　☆　出羽国住月山宗光　Dewa kuni jū Gassan Munemitsu.

マ554　☆　羽州住兵良直政作　Ushū jū Heiryō Naomasa saku.

マ894　☆　羽州山形住和合貞友作　Ushū Yamagata jū Wagō Sadatomo saku.

Do they started using Katakana from 1943?
166 羽州天童住兵良直次作 1942.11
315 出羽国住月山宗光 1943.2
マ431 ☆ 出羽国住月山宗光 ?
マ554 ☆ 羽州住兵良直政作 1943.12
マ894 ☆ 羽州山形住和合貞友作 1944.6

[Kiipu]

The earliest prefix I have recorded is dated May 1943 and the highest is July 1944.  @Bruce Pennington might expand on these dates though as I am not always up-to-date.

 

Lowest

ホ84　☆ 竹下宏國作之 Takeshita Hirokuni saku kore　皇紀二千六百三年五月日 May 1943.

Highest

ク705　☆ 継延作 Tsugunobu saku　昭和十九年七月日 July 1944.

[Bruce Pennington]

I used to have 1 blade dated 1942, but after doing some QualityControl, I have had to correct that one to "No Date".  So I have 2 blades in May of '42 - the one Thomas listed and this one:

1943, May

Niigata

Munetoshi (RJT)

松 1080 RS star イ403 on fittings

Trotter Collection,

[BANGBANGSAN]

This one is interesting, it has both Star and Seki marks (looks small size 関to me), but it seems no Ser number.

関光信 Seki Mitsunobu
昭和廿（20）年二月日 1945 Feb

 

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

small size 関to me),

Thanks Trystan!  I have 7 other star-stamped blades with the small seki, all in '44 & '45.  Smiths Kanehide, Kunitoshi, and now Mitsunobu.

[BANGBANGSAN]

This 兼玄 Kaneharu  has both Cherry blossom 昭 & Small 関

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Cherry blossom 昭 & Small 関

Trystan,

It would be significant to see a more clear shot of that sakura stamp.  As a 1945 blade, it should be a Gifu in sakura.  I do have 1 1945 blade with the Showa stamp, but I have 33 '45 blades with the Gifu.  Can you contact the owner, or give a link to the photos?

[BANGBANGSAN]

46 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Trystan,

It would be significant to see a more clear shot of that sakura stamp.  As a 1945 blade, it should be a Gifu in sakura.  I do have 1 1945 blade with the Showa stamp, but I have 33 '45 blades with the Gifu.  Can you contact the owner, or give a link to the photos?

You are right, it should be 岐。

[Bruce Pennington]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:37 PM, george trotter said:

(Munetoshi, Niigata, 18/5, tang has 'matsu' 1080)

George,

Forgive me if we've discussed this before (a mind is a terrible thing to waste!), but I don't have photos of the mei and date on this one.  Is it possible to get some?

 

Thanks my friend!

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce,

No problem...here is RS mounted Munetoshi dated 18/5 and tang tip stamp 1080.

Regards, Geo.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks George!  The very Matsu 1080 that got me started tracking these and it's my Stamps Doc cover, but I realized I didn't have it on file!

[Bruce Pennington]

A "for what it's worth" post.

 

I took a brief look at my DATED blades with number stamps.  It looks like the progression of Army numbering went as follows:

 

[I have no dated blades with numbers prior to 1941; Ok, the zoheito are numbered, but I think these are in a different tracking category]

1941-1942: Plain numbers

Overlapping

Feb 1942-Mar 1944: Matsu + number

Overlapping

July 1943-1944: Katakana + number

1945: Plain numbers

 

I have loads of Non-dated blades with numbers, but I am comfortable assuming they would fit into this flow. 

 

These are categorized by the smith.  The numbering does flow properly per each smith, but isn't in order by date.  In other words, when the blades are charted by date, the numbers aren't in any sort of order.  But when the smiths are separated out, the numbers flow in order by each smith.  So, I think the Army was tracking blades made by each smith.  Reason for this - unknown.  Speculations - a way to account for paying each smith for work done?

 

I haven't analyzed the Navy blades yet, and will update when completed.  Here's the chart I have worked up so far:

 

Numbered blades by Smith.docx

[Bruce Pennington]

Update on the FYI post above

 

I've added the kanji for each smith name and corrected one I had listed as "Katsumara".  The smith was really "Masakatsu", Katsumara was his first name.

 

I still don't have a warm-fuzzy feeling about the "Kiyokuni" vs "Kamikuni" name, so I've listed both names, with the appropriate kanji.

Numbered blades by Smith.docx

[Bruce Pennington]

The Navy blades SEEM to follow the same pattern as the Army numbered blades.  The problem is that ALL of the observed Navy blades with numbers are undated.  I've arranged them in numerical order, but this may be a fiction.  Without dates it is impossible to be conclusive about the matter.  Chart with discussion attached.

Numbered Blades - Navy.docx

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

Star Stamp 繼延作   昭和十八年二月日 Ser#1936

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Star Stamp 繼延作   昭和十八年二月日 Ser#1936

Nice find Trystan!  As you know, I don't read smith names other than "Kane", and Google translate says this means "extension work".  After browsing SFIndex, I'm saying - Tsugunobu???  If so, I only have one other on file, so great find!

[mecox]

Bruce and Trystan,  it looks like this bloke from Sesko

TSUGUNOBU (継延), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gunma – “Tsugunobu” (継延), real name Tsukakoshi Yonekichi (塚越米吉), born 1906, he studied under Kasama Shigetsugu (笠間繁継) and Kanetomo (兼友) and signed in early years with Kaneharu (兼春), he worked as rikugun-jumei-tōshō, as Kaneharu jōkō no retsu (Akihide), Fourth Seat at the 6th Shinsaku Nihontō Denrankai (新作日本刀展覧会, 1941).  

Using an old style "tsugu" and Showa 18 (1943) February (not 1936!)

[mecox]

Bruce/Trystan, I now see he is in Slough page 179, and also uses place name Kozuke an old name for Gunma (not Gumma).  Slough reads his family name as Tsukagoe (Slough reads Tsukakoshi). 

[BANGBANGSAN]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Nice find Trystan!  As you know, I don't read smith names other than "Kane", and Google translate says this means "extension work".  After browsing SFIndex, I'm saying - Tsugunobu???  If so, I only have one other on file, so great find!

Mr Ohmura said  継延( Tsugunobu) make 群水刀((Gunsui-tō)since he is from 群馬県（Gunma）。

「継延」(群水刀) "Tsugunobu" (Gunsui-tō)      http://ohmura-study.net/754.html

群水刀　Gunsui-tō     http://ohmura-study.net/208.html

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

群水刀((Gunsui-tō)

Ohmura doesn't explain what he means by that.  Wikipedia talks of gunsui being an honorary, highest rank for generals and admirals, and says " They were also entitled to wear a special samurai sword (katana) of a modern design on ceremonial occasions. "  So, is he saying Tsugunobu made swords for these highest officers to wear?  Or is this a honorary title to his swordmaking skills?