Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

[george trotter]

Yes, Bruce. 

The essential aspects are that the RJT scheme was formulated and "enforced" by the Army.

Tatara iron supplied to "approved" swordsmiths. Swords traditionally made in smith's regional forge. Polished locally, mounted locally, sent to regional centre for collection (inspected/stamped there) sent to various Kaikosha for sale.

From sale price the smith, tatara, polisher, mounter were paid.

I don't know what more we can say to doubters on this RJT system...the facts are clear...to get the star stamp the sword HAD to be made to strict Army guidelines...of tamahagane, HAD to be tradititionally forged and tempered...that is...a Gendaito. In fact, this RJT star system is actually a "guarantee" of a true gendaito. If a sword exists with a star stamp but is a showato...it must be a fake.

 

just a comment on some other comments in Nicks posts at warrelics that may be unclear...I have said elsewhere that the Yasukuni had its own tatara on site from 1933-1945 and a second tatara was established in Shimane Pref. c. 1933-1945....this one (I think) was mainly supplying the RJT scheme...Checking my sources however, I am in fact not sure if there was a tatara on the grounds of the Yasukuni shrine or if they too used the tamahagane made at the Shimane tatara...maybe someone can add info here.

Good stuff Bruce,

 

Edit to add....the Yasukuni Shrine tatara seems to have in fact been in Shimane Prefecture - see Yasukuni Swords pp84-93. I think I said it was in Yasukuni grounds because it is referred to ar Yasukuni tatara even though it was halfway down the country away. sorry about that.

[Kiipu]

13 hours ago, george trotter said:

Edit to add....the Yasukuni Shrine tatara seems to have in fact been in Shimane Prefecture - see Yasukuni Swords pp84-93. I think I said it was in Yasukuni grounds because it is referred to as Yasukuni tatara even though it was halfway down the country away.

 

Ditto!  I am glad that I am not the only one that made this mistake.

Rikugun Jumei Tosho (RJT) Star Stamped Blades - Documentation?, Post #26

 

I think my mistake prompted Nick to expand on the whole matter as seen in post #31.

Rikugun Jumei Tosho (RJT) Star Stamped Blades - Documentation?, Post #31

Quote

Thus the Army launched the initiative to revive Tatara steel smelting by having the Nihon-to Tanrenkai 日本刀鍛錬会 Japanese Sword Forging Association raise money to open a new Tatara to be named the Yasukuni-tatara, which was located nowhere close to Yasukuni Shrine, but far away in the current Okuizumo-cho, Nita District, Shimane Prefecture.

[george trotter]

Glad we sorted this one out Thomas.

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

New addition to the Niigata smiths, a second Akimitsu, 1943, with タ1261 on the nakago, just 15 numbers apart from the other Akimitsu on file.  Important addition, as well, to the blades marked with both stamped numbers and painted numbers.  I'm checking with the owner, Leo2018 at THIS WEHRMACT-AWARDS THREAD to see if the fittings have any numbers.  So far, I haven't found any of these with numbers on the fittings.  But, to me, it doesn't make sense that the stamped numbers come from a fitting shop.  There would be no known purpose to painting a different number on the same blade.  But of course, I realize that I'm still just speculating.

PAINTED & STAMPED NUMBERS

 

Year	Smith	Stamped #	Paint	Notes
1942, Dec	Akihisa Star	Matsu577	“42”	Quality RS fittings
1943	Akimitsu Star	タ1261	“651”	Quality RS fttings
1943, May	Hiromasa Star	61; paint “60” date side	“19” on mei side	Low quality (Late?) RS, custom leather saya wrap
1944, Mar	Munetoshi Star	タ2353 star	“678”	Late RS possible re-fit, no 2nd ana
1944	Kanemitsu RJT (no star)	24 stamped	“22” paint	Mid-quality RS fittings; “1” on tsuba/seppa

[Kiipu]

On 6/28/2021 at 1:29 PM, Kiipu said:

The katakana characters タ TA, オ O, ク KU, マ MA, フ FU, and ア A, appear to be a numbering system used by an association (or arsenal) that had jurisdiction over northern and central Honshu.

 

I thought I would elaborate a little more on this prefecture numbering system.

 

北海道　Hokkaidō

ホ HO = Hokkaidō　北海道.

 

東北　Tōhoku Area

ア A = Akita Prefecture　秋田縣.

オ O = Aomori Prefecture　青森縣.

フ FU = Fukushima Prefecture　福島縣.

? = Iwate Prefecture　岩手縣.

? = Miyagi Prefecture　宮城縣.

マ MA = Yamagata Prefecture　山形縣.

 

@Bruce Pennington There are two swordsmiths in Iwate, namely 國安 Kuniyasu and 助廣 Sukehiro.  Could the Sukehiro below be a イ prefix for Iwate?   

Three Gendaito For Sale, Post #2

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

I thought I would elaborate a little more on this prefecture numbering system.

 

北海道　Hokkaidō

ホ HO = Hokkaidō　北海道.

 

東北　Tōhoku Area

ア A = Akita Prefecture　秋田縣.

オ O = Aomori Prefecture　青森縣.

フ FU = Fukushima Prefecture　福島縣.

? = Iwate Prefecture　岩手縣.

? = Miyagi Prefecture　宮城縣.

マ MA = Yamagata Prefecture　山形縣.

 

@Bruce Pennington There are two swordsmiths in Iwate, namely 國安 Kuniyasu and 助廣 Sukehiro.  Could the Sukehiro below be a イ prefix for Iwate?   

Three Gendaito For Sale, Post #2

Thomas, that's fabulous!  I think you've broke the code on that.  If so, it backs my theory that these kana/numbers are Army not fittings shops.

 

The イ prefix for Iwate is certainly possible, but unless I've missed one, I don't actually have a numbered blade marked with that, in the standard way.  All I have are:

ND                 Fukuoka  Nagamitsu (RJT)  イ313 on mune                                      Ooitame; NMB, RS

1943             Niigata     Akimitsu (RJT)         2138 (イ536 fittings)                         TimBlackburne, RS

1943, May    Niigata     Munetoshi (RJT)    松 1080 RS star (イ403 on fittings)  Trotter Collection

 

In you example of the "Three Gendaito For Sale, Post #2" I don't see a number.  Is there one?  Also, the Slough reference page lists Sukehiro as "Tokyo".  Any idea why the conflicting prefecture attributions?

[Kiipu]

I think there is enough information at hand to create a thread just for the "Star Stamped Prefecture Serial Numbering System."  It would be a good place to discuss and post links to examples as they are located.  How about it Bruce?

 

I relooked at the Sukehiro and it looks like 1525.

[Kiipu]

On 4/12/2021 at 6:47 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Got my first hit: Sadaroku, 1943, Ta 1361.

 

Could this be タ1369 instead of タ1361?

[Bruce Pennington]

33 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

タ1369

Just checked it and I agree.  I've changed my records. 

 

As for a new thread, I could go either way.  I just cruised through the first page of this thread and can see that George's original intent was to discuss just what the title says.  Yet, the discussion is in one way or another interlinked as we pursue the question "Are these fitting shop numbers or Army RJT numbers."  The examples of blade numbers matching or not matching fittings, along with stamped numbered blades with painted numbers, are both important investigations into the overall question.  I'm happy having these intertwined discussions on one thread.  But if somebody wants to spin off the discussion of the kana/number stamping, I'm good with that too.

[Kiipu]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:01 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

New addition to the Niigata smiths, a second Akimitsu, 1943, with タ1261 on the nakago, just 15 numbers apart from the other Akimitsu on file.

 

Do you a have a picture showing the entire reverse side of the nakago?  Also, are there any markings on the nakago mune?  And finally, I will need your shoe size and blood type!

[Bruce Pennington]

19 hours ago, Kiipu said:

entire reverse side

These are the closest he posted.  I can ask him for full shots if you like.

And -- 12; A+ -- Ha!

 

[Kiipu]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

These are the closest he posted.  I can ask him for full shots if you like.

 

Thanks Big Feet!  I was missing some of the kanji characters for that side and the photograph above filled in the blanks.  The only followup is to ask if there are any inspection marks on the nakago or nakago mune.  So far, the answer seems to be no on the early star-stamped blades?

[Kiipu]

On 6/12/2021 at 7:25 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

On the other hand, a pre-RJT program blade by Munetoshi, July 1941, from Slough, stamped "106", so probably a fitter number but no fittings shown to find out.

 

More likely an example of an early Type 100 serial number.  Note that the serial number is stamped upside down compared to the early serial numbers that appear on star stamped blades.  For an example of another one, see @Windy illustrations.

Timeline Type 3 Gunto, Post #9

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

early Type 100 serial number.

Have you been tracking numbers on Rinji vs 98 blades?  I'll look through my files fully tomorrow, but a quick scan shows some pre-RJT blades stamped both ways.

 

This Kanetsugu is May '42, but no star, yet numbered the "RJT" way.

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, Kiipu said:

the answer seems to be no on the early star-stamped blades?

Interesting point Thomas.  A quick scan shows that most blades stamped with numbers on the mune aren't star-stamped, although I have 2 in 1944 with stars and mune numbers, but that fits your point about "early" blades not having them.  Looks like the practice began in 1942, which coincides with the Army assuming control of sword production.

1944, Jun	Masakuni (RJT) – Osaka	75 on mune Star	Volker62, NMB  RS
1944, Jul	Tomonari (RJT) – Kobe Hyogo	24 on mune Star

[Bruce Pennington]

Concerning the question of the orientation of numbers on the nakago of non-star RJT blades, Thomas was correct in that the 1941 blades are oriented with the mune down, cutting edge up like this:

While the 1942 and later blades are oriented with the mune up, cutting edge down like this:

 

While my database is still quite small, I found this to be true, with rare exception.  All star-stamped blades were marked with the mune at the top.  But the timing of the switch seems to also coincide with the official take-over of Japanese blade production by the Army in 1942.  So the reason may simply be due to that.  Also, the idea of the numbers being a Rinji serial system could have merit as the massive majority of the numbered blades in the survey are in RS mounts, however I found 5 numbered blades in Type 98 mounts and a few others with only oshigata to go by, but showing only 1 ana.  So, I don't think the evidence is very strong to support the idea, though, again, certainly possible.

 

Number Layout (RJT, no star)

 

1941, Jul	Munetoshi	106	Bottom	RS
1941, Dec	Akihisa	566	Bottom	RS
1941, Dec	Tomomaru	535	Bottom	RS
1941, Dec	Tomomary	621	Bottom	RS
1942, Apr	Masakazu	1129	Top	RS
1942, May	Kanetsugu	1220	Top	RS
1942, May	Ryuu	1301	Top	RS
1943, Jan	Shigemasa	2118	Top	Slough, no 2nd ana
1944	Kanemitsu	24	Horizontal, tip up	RS
Non-RJT
1943, Jan	Katsumasa	168	Bottom	T98
1944, Oct	Kanetsuna	506	Vertical	RS
1944, Dec	Katsumasa	254	Bottom, above ana	Unknown fittings
Type 95, Late	Jensen Arsenal	1551	Bottom
Type 95, Late	Jensen Arsenal	260	Bottom

 

 

[Kiipu]

The following is coming from pages 114-115 of Military Swords of Japan, 1868-1945, by Fuller & Gregory.  It has a serial number of 383 which might be unique to the star-stamped blades made by the Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal.

Obverse: ☆　東京第一陸軍造兵廠　勝信  = Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal　Katsunobu.

Reverse: 昭和十八年八月吉日　383 = A lucky day in August 1943　383.

Nakago mune:  unknown.

[Kiipu]

On 6/7/2021 at 6:00 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Came across a second Gunma prefecture smith with the "Ku" + number.  It's on page 167 of Ohmura's new book entitled 真説 戦う日本刀―“最高”と呼べる武器性能の探究 .

Tsugunobu (RJT), Gunma, July 1944 RS fittings. ク70-5

 

Below are the characters for those that do not have access to the book.

Obverse: ☆　継延作 = ☆ Tsugunobu saku.

Reverse: 昭和十九年七月日　ク705 = A day in July 1944　KU 705.

Nakago mune:  markings unknown.

Tang holes 目釘孔: = 2.

 

Edit: It can also be seen over at Ohmura's website.

無銘・「継延」(群水刀)・池田國忠

Edited August 11, 2021 by Kiipu

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The following is coming from pages 114-115 of Military Swords of Japan, 1868-1945, by Fuller & Gregory.  It has a serial number of 383 which might be unique to the star-stamped blades made by the Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal.

Obverse: ☆　東京第一陸軍造兵廠　勝信  = Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal　Katsunobu.

Reverse: 昭和十八年八月吉日　383 = A lucky day in August 1943　383.

Nakago mune:  unknown.

I have 2 造兵廠 made Gunto,both has star.

One is Type 98- 東京第一陸軍造兵廠 尚武  昭和十八年九月吉日  #453。

One is NS  -東京第一陸軍造兵廠 宣威 昭和十七年十二月吉日 #47？

 

[Kiipu]

There are four swords of interest in Modern Japanese Swords by Leon & Hiroko Kapp, and Leo Monson.  One is an early serialized Type 100; two are unserialized, star stamped 98s; and one is a prefecture marked Type 100.  The last one has been mentioned already and the details are at the link below.

Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings, Post #12

 

Early Type 100, Serial Number 798

Pages 76-77.

Obverse: 昭久 = Akihisa.

Reverse: 昭和十七年一月　798 = January 1942　798.  The serial number 798 is upside down.  See post #136 above for additional examples.

Nakago mune: Unknown.

Tang holes 目釘孔: 2.

 

Masatsugu Star Stamped Type 98, Unserialized

Pages 82-83.

Obverse: ☆　肥前國正次 = Hizen kuni Masatsugu.

Reverse: 皇紀二千六百二年八月吉日 = A lucky day in August 1942.

Nakago mune: Unknown.

Tang holes: = 1.

 

Hiromitsu Star Stamped Type 98, Unserialized

Pages 136-137.

Obverse: ☆　筑前住梶原廣光作 = Chikuzen jū Kajiwara Hiromitsu saku.

Reverse: 昭和十八年八月吉祥日 = An auspicious day in August 1943.

Nakago mune: Unknown.

Tang holes: = 1.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The following is coming from pages 114-115 of Military Swords of Japan, 1868-1945, by Fuller & Gregory.  It has a serial number of 383 which might be unique to the star-stamped blades made by the Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal.

Obverse: ☆　東京第一陸軍造兵廠　勝信  = Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal　Katsunobu.

Reverse: 昭和十八年八月吉日　383 = A lucky day in August 1943　383.

Nakago mune:  unknown.

Thanks Thomas!  Just goes to show that I need to be re-reading my reference books!  There's bound to be stuff in them that meant nothing to me the first time I read them.  I didn't have this one in the files, but now I do!  On that note, I do have two other:

1943, Jun

Nobutake (RJT) – Tokyo 1st

283 Star

Ammad, NMB RS

1943, Jun

Nobutake (RJT) – Tokyo 1st

218 Star

Jim Manley, NMB

 

 

[Second blade added in Edit]

[BANGBANGSAN]

24 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Thomas!  Just goes to show that I need to be re-reading my reference books!  There's bound to be stuff in them that meant nothing to me the first time I read them.  I didn't have this one in the files, but now I do!  On that note, I do have one other:

1943, Jun

Nobutake (RJT) – Tokyo 1st

283 Star

Ammad, NMB RS

 

 

 

Bruce

The Smith is Nobutake，same one who made my sword.Not 勝信 Katsunobu.

[Kiipu]

Just a quick link to Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal sword, serial 283.  A rather interesting looking Type 100.

Hi all its ammad again . I bought a new sword . Plz let me knw if ita real or fake .

 

[Bruce Pennington]

20 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The Smith is Nobutake

Yes, I simply meant that I have 2 other Tokyo 1st Arsenal mei, with numbers, like that.

 

BTW you're killing me with the Japanese only translations!!! GRRR.  Either I have little time to look this stuff up, or like now, lots of time, but fuzzy-headed from a good strong beer on an empty stomach!

 

So check my here.  Your 2 are:

Nobutaka Dec 1942 #47

Naotake Sep 1943 #453

 

??? I seriously think I've jumbled that all up!

[BANGBANGSAN]

22 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

So check my here.  Your 2 are:

Nobutaka Dec 1942 #47

Naotake Sep 1943 #453

 

That's correct, both swords have Tokyo 1st Arsenal mei and star.

And I'm wondering how many smiths use Tokyo 1st Arsenal mei? I knew there are more than a few smith work at Tokyo 1st Arsenal.

Now we have 3,勝信 Katsunobu, 尚武 Naotake, and 宣威 Nobutaka.

Tokyo Dai Ichi Rikugun Zoheisho (東京第一陸軍造兵廠)
These smiths made swords at the Imperial Army's arsenal factory
in Akabane, Tokyo (1943-45).  These swords are usually inscribed
'Tokyo Dai Ichi Rikugun Zoheisho'.  Others may have also worked
here on a part-time basis.
     1.  Nobutaka (宣威) 
     2.  Kanemasa (兼正)
     3.  Katsunobu (勝信)
     4.  Morikuni (守国)
Other
The following smiths include:
1.  Those working in the late Bakumatsu period on into the Meiji
Period.
2.  Smiths not formally affiliated with any of the above groups
who nonetheless made swords in Tokyo.
3. Smiths which have not yet been proven to be connected with
any of the above groups.
Akimi (昭美) (Denshujo?)
Akitaka (昭高) (Denshujo?)
Akiyuki (昭通) (Denshujo?)
Genji (源次)
Hisahiro (久弘)
Hidetoshi (秀俊)
Hidemori (英守) 
Hirotsugu (広次)/ Hirotsugu (寛次) ( Sokanﾕs son )
Hironaga (寛長) (Enshin ?)
Hisayoshi (久義)
Ishinsai (一心斎)
Kiyokane (清兼) (Denshujo?)
Kunihide (国秀) ((kodai Tsunatoshi)
Kunimitsu (国光)
Kunimune (国宗)
Kunihiro (国博) 
Kunitada (国忠)
Kunitaka (国隆)
Korehide (是秀) (kodai Tsunatoshi)
Korekazu (是一) (kodai Korekazu)
Kunimasa (国和)
Masatada (正周) ( Suzuki Masaoﾕs group)
Masanori (正則) (Joukeishi Masaakiﾕs student)
Masakazu (正一)
Masanobu (正与)/Masataka (政賢)
Masayoshi (政善)
Masatsuna (聖綱) 
Masasuke (正助)
Mitsukazu (光一)
Miyotaro  (三代太郎) 
Morikuni (盛国) 
Morimichi (守道)
Moritoshi (盛俊) ( Kurihara Nobuhideﾕs student) 
Morotaka (師敬)
Muneshige (宗重) 
Nanta (楠太)
Nankoku (南国)
Naokatsu (直勝)/ Naomune (直諒) (Sandai Naokatsu; Naomune is
early mei)
Naohide (直秀) (Naokatsuﾕs student; Naotane group)
Naohiro (直広) 
Naotake (尚武)
Noriyuki (則行)
Saneoki (真興)
Saneyoshi (真義) (Kato Ichitaro (加藤一太郎); Hanazawa
Tanrenjo?)
Sanezumi (真澄)
Senshu (仙綉)
Shizukuni (鎮国) 
Sukenobu (祐信) 
Tadakazu (忠和)
Takaoki (高興)
Takeshi (武)
Tokiyoshi (時吉)
Tsuguesuke (継え助)
Ujiyori (氏白)
Yasufusa (康房)
Yasushige (康重) (12th generation Shitahara)
Yasumoto (康元)
Yoshisaburo (与三郎)
Yoshihiro (義広)
Yoshisada (義定)
Youichiro (興一郎)
Yoshitame (義為)

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Early Type 100, Serial Number 798

Pages 76-77.

Obverse: 昭久 = Akihisa.

Reverse: 昭和十七年一月　798 = January 1942　798.  The serial number 798 is upside down.  See post #136 above for additional examples.

Nakago mune: Unknown.

Tang holes 目釘孔: 2.

 

Masatsugu Star Stamped Type 98, Unserialized

Pages 82-83.

Obverse: ☆　肥前國正次 = Hizen kuni Masatsugu.

Reverse: 皇紀二千六百二年八月吉日 = A lucky day in August 1942.

Nakago mune: Unknown.

Tang holes: = 1.

Thanks Thomas!  I have a Kapp book but it's not this one.  Any chance of getting some phone photos of those pages for my files?  I've logged them into the charts from your post, and can use screenshots of your post, if photos aren't likely, though.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Found one more smith with Tokyo First (東京第一陸軍造兵廠)

正武  Masatake 昭和十九年六月(1944 June) #644,Type 98,no star.

[Bruce Pennington]

42 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Found one more smith with Tokyo First (東京第一陸軍造兵廠)

正武  Masatake 昭和十九年六月(1944 June) #644,Type 98,no star.

That's super, Trystan, thanks!

 

You know, these blades made by RJT smiths directly for the Tokyo 1st Arsenal remind me of something Chris Bowen said, quoting one of the smiths - that blades made at the factory didn't get the star.  It was blades made elsewhere and brought to the arsenal that were inspected and stamped with the star.  Hmmmmm, maybe he was right.  If so, these blades are likely gendaito.

[Kiipu]

 

15 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

That's correct, both swords have Tokyo 1st Arsenal mei and star.

 

Professor BangBangSan, thank you for the additional 東京第一陸軍造兵廠 nakago pictures.  There was a NMB post from 2013 that pictured the Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal swordsmiths from the 1943 exhibition.

Notice anything interesting???, Post #7

[BANGBANGSAN]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

 

Professor BangBangSan, thank you for the additional 東京第一陸軍造兵廠 nakago pictures.  There was a NMB post from 2013 that pictured the Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal swordsmiths from the 1943 exhibition.

Notice anything interesting???, Post #7

Thomas

Thank you much for that info, it's just what I was looking for.