Naotane Ichimonji utsushi/utsushimono

[BIG]

Never seen a choji midare  ICHIMONJI copy made by Naotane, but some (Japanese) sources and also NBTHK told us there are „Bizen den Ichimonji..“. Only in the NIHON SHINSHINTO SHI we learn that Naotane did not temper Ichimonji blades. Opinions welcome.

 

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[Rivkin]

I think it depends on definition of Ichimonji. Typical Naotane Bizen has distinctive mokume hada and is in very uniform ko-nie with sunagashi. It does not exactly match any particular Ichimonji style.

[Jacques D.]

From Shinshinto Taikan :

[BIG]

I think it`s a hamon question. Jacques is your example choji midare Ichimonji hamon?

 

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[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, BIG said:

I think it`s a hamon question. Jacques is your example choji midare Ichimonji hamon?

 

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According the description and if i read it correctly, yes.

[BIG]

KO-CHOJI MIDARE LIKE BIZEN OSAFUNE NAGAMITSU..

 

http://nihonto-museum.com/blog/bizen-osafune-nagamitsu

 

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[DKR]

18 hours ago, BIG said:

 Only in the NIHON SHINSHINTO SHI we learn that Naotane did not temper Ichimonji blades. Opinions welcome.

 

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Sorry , but  it is written in NIHON SHINSHINTO SHI (Markus Sesko) that he never temper "O" - Choji - midare in Ichimonji Style.

I point out : O-Choji .

Sometimes you see a Choji-midare with higher elements...(see the picture from the shin shinto taikan)....but this is not the O-Choji-midare from the Ichimonji school.

@BIG

For me is Markus correct with his Statement that Naotane never temper a O-Choji-midare in Ichimonji Style.........or can you show me a Naotane blade with a O-Choji-Midare Hamon ?

 

 

 

[BIG]

Hi Didier MARKUS translate the NIHON SHINSHINTO SHI...THE EXAMPLE SHOWN is imo not an ICHIMONJI HAMON..

 

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[Jacques D.]

3 hours ago, BIG said:

.THE EXAMPLE SHOWN is imo not an ICHIMONJI HAMON..

 

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Yes it is as says the description

[Mark]

there are many schools included in "Ichimonji school".  A fukuoka Ichimonji hamon might have wild O-chogi, but other Ichimonji groups did not.   so maybe there is something lost in the translation/description.  An Ichimonji blade can have a temper like Jacques showed in the shin-shinto taikan  but if someone is just thinking Fukuoka then that temper is not typical as they are usually more wild. Then there is always Ko-Ichimonji.

 

So my opinion is Naotane made swords with Ichimonji type temper, but not in the style of the wildest of the Fukuoke type.  Also the terms O-chogi, chogi-midare, can at times be a matter of someones opinion and how they use the terms. 

[BIG]

Hi Mark, thanks for your answer, think you are right. NBTHK wrote „ Bizen den Ichimonji“ ..

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[Jussi Ekholm]

Here are few Jūyō Naotane with pretty wild hamon.

 

[Rivkin]

There are green paper Ichimonji with Kanzan's sayagaki which repaper as shinto Ishido, and far less often, but sometimes, one does get NTHK/NBTHK difference on those, but I don't think anyone from shinshinto has this distinction. Whatever the reason, they all were "Bizen inspired" rather than an accurate copy of Ichimonji jigane/hamon.

[Jacques D.]

On 4/4/2021 at 1:26 PM, BIG said:

Hi Didier MARKUS translate the NIHON SHINSHINTO SHI...THE EXAMPLE SHOWN is imo not an ICHIMONJI HAMON..

 

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If i'm not wrong, Markus wrote the Shinshinto-shi instead translate it.. 

[DKR]

8 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

 

If i'm not wrong, Markus wrote the Shinshinto-shi instead translate it.. 

Correct !

He also write the book Nihon-Shinto-Shi.