Two kozuka and one kogai

[Janrudolph]

Top of the morning, good people!

Here are two kozuka and one kogai. Please be so kind as to comment on them; so far I have been advised that the experts should be the ones to bring a verdict. Perhaps that's just our kind forumites being humble? Please help.

Johan 

[Janrudolph]

[Janrudolph]

[Janrudolph]

Anybody out there....? Those two emblems in gold on the handle of the kogai look different, but yet seem similar to me. Are they known Japanese emblems? Johan

[FlorianB]

Hello Johan,

these emblems are called KAMON or just MON and show the KIRI-motif. KIRI were popular and appear frequently. Yours are different in size so I persume there must be another probably smaller one in the space beside the larger one but fell off. The condition of the KOGAI is not the best either.

On the right side gourds, on the left side a flag and a SAIHAI, a commanding baton are shown.

Best, Florian

[Janrudolph]

I should use this opportunity, Florian and other knowledgeable kozuka guys out there, to show a kozuka that I am in the process of getting. Pics to follow. I very much liked the extended script on the tang, which I imagine to be the smith's name plus perhaps a poem or something. But that's all I can think of. Please explain what's going on there, if you all will be so kind! Johan

[Janrudolph]

[SteveM]

Post #3

Left knife signature is 関兼元 (Seki Kanemoto). 

Right signature eludes me. 三囗包囗　Mi-something Kane-something. Maybe something like Minami Kanenobu (包宣）? Or Kanesada（包定）? 

 

Post #8

The knife is upside down, but the writing is

金華於濃州長良川邊藤原清長

Kinka oite Nōshū Nagaragawa-hotori Fujiwara Kiyonaga

It means Fujiwara Kiyonaga, from the Nagaragawa region of the Province of Nōshu near Mt. Kinka forged this. 

 

Note that the general consensus is that most signatures on these kogatana are not authentic signatures. They are said to be mostly fake signatures (or, as we say, an homage to the smith mentioned). This is almost certainly the case with the Kanemoto signature above. 

[SteveM]

I would also advise that once you have a kozuka/kogatana or two in your collection, you should save your money for your next step on your nihonto journey. I know because I wasted a lot of money on mediocre pieces just because I could afford them. I was trying to find treasure in the bargain basement, when I really should have been saving my money for a piece that helped me progress as a sword enthusiast.

[FlorianB]

The KOGATANA blades serve as utilitarian knifes and thus the quality isn’t high in many cases. That’s why far more KOZUKA exist instead of KOGATANA.

However there are also well forged KOGATANA  with authentic signatures by the smiths who made them  as a sideline to use up material. I think You will recognize those in the future with Your eyes trained.

 

KOGATANA and KOZUKA don’t belong together inevitably and could be exchanged. Often the tang is modified to fit into another KOZUKA. Sometimes both are offered together to upgrade the attraction of moderate KOZUKA.

Of course I agree with Steve to look for better pieces, it will pay off in the long run.

 

BTW many years ago I started with KOZUKA, too, because I was interested in how the artists handle the extreme format.

 

Florian

 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

2 hours ago, SteveM said:

I would also advise that once you have a kozuka/kogatana or two in your collection, you should save your money for your next step on your nihonto journey. I know because I wasted a lot of money on mediocre pieces just because I could afford them. I was trying to find treasure in the bargain basement, when I really should have been saving my money for a piece that helped me progress as a sword enthusiast.

Agree 100% i think we have all been there

[Janrudolph]

Florian, Steve M and Jesse, thank you for the valuable info. You are helping me deepen my knowledge about kozuka/kogatana which was initially poor.  

Steve, what you said in post 10 is so very, very true. Of course it is as you say. BUT.... there may be some factors which cause different behaviour in collectors even if these truths were brought to their attention at an early stage. One is the age of the newbie collector. I am 75 and this is my first year of owning nihonto. I cannot have the expectation of another quarter century of active healthy life ahead which could see my collection burgeoning with choicer items. And I'm not being dismal about it, just looking at reality. And then there's budget. After retirement the budget goes down the drain, and in my case my day of retirement is so long past it is just a vague memory.  There is a third factor that springs to mind, and that is the inclination of the collector to specialise at an early stage. I have never specialised, but have collected smallish sets of many kinds of traditional edged weapons (the kris, the kukri, blades of North Africa, also militaria: bayonets etc and muzzle loaders... the list goes on). What this collecting situation has imparted to me is a very wide knowledge, as I have always loved researching everything I obtain. Those who love a specialist field might frown on this, or even scoff, saying "Jack of all trades, master of none". It's a choice all new collectors have to make. And you don't know yourself when you start to accumulate stuff while still in school, like I have. And then lastly: even if you should corner a youngster or young collector and give him the wise advice in Steve's post 10, will it have a chance of altering his behaviour? Will youthful eagerness rather compel him to amass wide knowledge by scooping up every item he can lay his hands on? Post 10 is the result of years of collecting knowledge and understanding, as well as advanced maturity in collecting logic. But... an orange cannot be squeezed ripe.     Johan

[Brian]

Nothing unusual there. I am an edged weapons collector too, and collect firearms including antiques. I have hundreds of bayonets, hundreds of custom and collectible knives, small but decent collections of kukri, keris, fairbairn sykes, fighting knives...and then of course my swords. So I'm right there with you. Nothing wrong with having broad interests.

[Janrudolph]

Thank you, Brian. I would lastly ask the assistance of Steve M or anyone who is able to come in, to help identify the design on the kozuka pictured in post #8. Some kind of long-bodied animal (dragon?) has been wounded by an arrow, but I can't make out the topmost gold-plated picture (probably the archer/samurai?). I do not unfortunately have the kozuka in hand yet, so no better picture. Please help. Johan

[Steves87]

It looks like a centipede, possibly the story of Tawara Toda?

[SteveM]

↑ Yes, I agree with what Stephen wrote. 

Tawara Tōda (aka Fujiwara no Hidesato). He rid the area around Lake Biwa of a giant centipede, using his bow and arrows, which earned him the thanks of Otohime and the Lord of Ryūgūjō. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujiwara_no_Hidesato

[Janrudolph]

Stephen & Steve, thank you. I am a person who is not really satisfied with merely getting people's opinions on eg. kozuka, but like to puzzle things out myself too. I became stuck with researching these three kozuka, and therefore had to ask for assistance, which you all kindly gave. Regarding the centipede kozuka, directly after Stephen replied with his suggestion, I Googled that story and became convinced that he was right. Then Steve confirmed it. Thank you, guys - much obliged! I do think at this stage that of the three kozuka in this thread, the centipede one is the more interesting (combined with its blade, of course). Of these three kozuka, (1-gourds, 2-commander's staff and 3-centipede), can you perhaps tell which one may be the oldest?   

 

[Brian]

I think the gourds are actually persimmons. A common Japanese theme.
And I think that kozuka may be the oldest, and for me the most interesting.

[Bugyotsuji]

Not in very good condition, but I like the 'ajiro' weave on the Kogai.

Not yet persuaded as to the autumn fruit composition on the right Kozuka. For a moment one even looked like a 'zakuro' pomegranate.(?)

[Janrudolph]

Thanks for coming in again, Brian. What is interesting to me about the persimmon kozuka, besides the apparant quality of the steel and the beautiful feel of it, is the length of the tang. The blade section is 115 mm long and the tang 82 mm. Moreover, the tang is slightly bent in a wavy form to assumedly help hold the blade sturdily in the kozuka. (Whether this bend was put in ages ago by the smith or added recently, I cannot tell.) The background field behind the persimmon seems quite smooth when you look at it, but under a strong glass you can see an ultra-minute roe pattern. And then the long tang has diagonal file marks on both sides. Also, I can't help noticing that the throat of the kozuka is shaped like a shinogi-zukuri blade in section. Johan

[FlorianB]

I won't be a nuisance, but I stick to my statement, that - at least on one side -  gourds (one of the many symbols meaning luck) are depicted- please compare with this picture:

 

 

The mentioned roe pattern could hint to a former gilding or silvering.

 

Florian

[Brian]

The roe pattern is just nanako. It has been worn down almost flat. Could be gourds, at the end of the day the actual item represented isn't of too much consequence.
This should be shakudo and not iron. Please check with a magnet. Reminds me of the very old blackish shakudo fittings (I forget the classification right now...some form of Goto?) that are so highly prized.  Kozuka and kogatana are treated separately. Yes, the tangs are often bent slightly to retain them.

[FlorianB]

Forget about my last remark, didn't read correctly 

 

Florian

[Janrudolph]

That kozuka is indeed shakudo. Regarding the signature on the right-hand blade in post #3, I was wondering why there is difficulty reading it. I thankfully noted that SteveM tried but could not make out certain characters. To my untrained eyes, those characters look strange, a different style to those I see in my katana and wakizashi tangs. So I am not making heads or tails out of it. Perhaps there is another of you guys willing to take a shot at that signature. If you please! Johan 

[Tanto54]

Brian are you thinking about Kyo-Goto?  They use that gourd and vine design.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Johan , If Steve cannot read your kogatana mei then no one else here other than Japanese members will be able to do so . The reason people have difficulty with this signature is because it is so poorly written .This poor writing speaks volumes about the quality of the blade. Being blunt it is not a good piece (and I am being kind here) .

Ian Brooks

[Janrudolph]

Ian, thank you, I suppose I had that coming, it could have been carried over more harshly by others! I agree I had put the idea of "nihonto" on a too high pedestal in my own mind, having spent 75 years not having access to same. I had characterised samurai swords for myself into 1) cheap Chinese replicas, 2) Chinese and other countries' reproductions, 3) Shin-gunto, 4) modern reproductions made in Japan, and 5) Samurai swords made in the era of the Samurai warrior. To me this last category was the absolute pinnacle: you don't get better than that. It was to be the final accomplishment in my year-long (!) search for the holy grail. Don't laugh - naivety is a disease! I have found out that within ALL FIRST FOUR of the self-invented categories above, there are graduations ranging from putrid to ethereal. I am now struggling to finally let the realization sink in that there are within the genuine 5) oldie nihonto category putrid "churned out" items out there, in all of sword blades, koshirae, tosogo and signatures! Seems I have enough of those now to tide me over - I'll invent a description to help me appreciate what I have nevertheless; it has to be a euphemism like "entry-level nihonto". That should do it.  Johan

[Yasaka Azuma]

Hello Johan, I can't understand the complicated content with my English ability, I apologize if you have already finished processing that.
Kozuka-kogatana may be too small to decorate your mantelpiece. But, for Samurai sword buff's, it is a target of proper collection.
As an example, please try check out the social media of kogatana collectors.

https://twitter.com/kogatanalab

 

Japanese sword craftsmen who have been approved by the cultural authorities still make kogatana carefully with the same materials and processes. Polishing may also be done by a professional craftsman.
Even in the Edo period, even a famous swordsmith like Kiyomaro left his work under the signature of his young name masayuki. Research books and how-to books are also published.
By the way, Steve's decryption of Mitugu School is a swordsmith group in the Bingo region. As already written, the store name may be pretension.

[Janrudolph]

Thank you, Yakozen, you honour me by submitting your post, and I appreciate your helpful comment. Johan 

[Brian]

Quote

4) modern reproductions made in Japan

Not really. Live sharp reproductions are illegal in Japan. Either you get blunt alloy training swords, or fully traditionally made expensive (more than antique) shinsakuto made by modern smiths. You can't really buy a repro with a live blade that isn't registered. So #4 that are cheap and out of Japan don't really exist.