Please, help to identify my hinawaju

[Marc T]

Hello everyone,
i try to identify two Hinawaju I have in my collection for a few moment now. One is a Kunitomo, and the other one is a Kishu area gun. That’s all I know, and I would appreciate if someone could help me on the following:

A)Name of the gunsmiths 
B) Period. Which part of the Edo period?
C) on the barrel, on top of the family crest, there is these 2 silver inlay which are not kanji. Bouddhist meaning? Does anyone knows about those marks?
C) is there a book that you would recommend that list all the gunsmiths of the Edo period ( if it exist). Even in Japanese would be fine.

Many thanks for your help

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Marc, did you copy and paste from somewhere?

Those photos tell us very little... 

 

As to books of gunsmiths, there is no such complete list, especially as the research has been done in Japan, missing most of those guns that have gone abroad. There are degrees of completeness; Sawada Taira has lists at the end of each chapter of Nihon no Furuju for example, but for me the best is Urabe Hideaki's Nihon no Teppo Kaji, I think it is called.

[Marc T]

Dear Piers,

Thank  you so much for your quick answer and information.

I am attaching new pictures for the Kishu gun. The mei is quite clear on this one. I like this gun,very simple ,and apart from the kamon, no decoration.

i also put a picture of the registration as well.

Thank you for your help.

The mei  on the kunitomo is less clear, so will wait tomorrow daylight to send the pictures.

Many thanks

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, that's great. It looks like a well-made barrel and pan surround. Most Kishu guns were made in Osaka/Sakai and this is no exception.

 

Your Mei on the Mie registration card says 摂州住榎並 彦兵衛作

Spoiler

Sesshu Ju Enami Hikobe Saku

 

PS The silver Kamon may be original, but these larger ones were often added later. (Keep an open mind!)

PPS None of the typical Kishu characteristics are visible in the photos that you have provided. 

[Marc T]

Thank you Piers. Very interesting.

By any chance, is it possible to have a date for this gunsmith? Late Edo ?

I add some more pictures.

Actually I am planning a shooting session with this one this week end. It hasn’t fire for a few hundred years....... 

Noted for the big kamon. Tomorrow, I will send picture of the Kunitomo, and on this one, the Kamon is smaller.

[Marc T]

[Bugyotsuji]

Marc, there’s a guy called Arthur Goetz who is deeply into Kishū guns and if possible wants to recreate one. He’d love to see your example, I’m sure, especially the lock internals. Thanks for the added photos, and just as you say, typical Kishū. Very nice.

I have two Kishū larger guns, but a friend might be willing to part with his Hosozutsu, which is rather like yours. (He’s quite attached to it though.) 😱 

Are you firing at a shooting range? How is the barrel internally? (Most J matchlocks are heavily pitted.)

There is no obvious indication of age, but most good clean examples like yours are late Edo. I’ll have a closer look tomorrow on the PC screen.
One thing though, his name is short, and the smith workshop is only the family name Enami (not the more usual Enamiya). Could this gun have been made in an earlier part of Edo, before Enami became the famous shop/company, the great ‘House of Enamiya’, I wonder?

[Marc T]

Hi Piers,

Thank you for your answer.

Sure, happy to share all the pictures your friend will need for his project. if he contacts me, I can send him pictures and measurements if he needs them.
The mechanism is in mint condition and working perfectly.the Bizen was very tight, and it took a lot of efforts to remove it for my gunsmith friend. I will test fire it on a shooting range this week end.

Will see how it goes. Problem is I don’t have the correct size of bullet mold for  it. A bit too small or too big....I believe it is 10.05-10.07.

 

now, the 2nd gun. Much better pictures with daylight....

Kunitomo,but no idea about the period and gunsmiths 

 

The mechanism also working very well. Needed some slight adjustments, but all parts were in excellent condition. Decoration are in silver.

 

Thank you again for your help Piers.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

There is stuff to check regarding this Kunitomo gun, Marc, (e.g. the registration card, also from Mie Ken, is slightly mistaken), so please forgive the time it takes to answer.

 

Watch this space...

The Mei reads 三重巻張 　　江州国友源之進珍英 and the little silver plaque on the bottom is a 'new' Kanji for the Western inch, i.e. 吋 (as opposed to Sun 寸)

 

There is an example of a 4.5 Monme gun by your smith (listed as a 'descendant of Gen-no-Shin') in the museum at Nagahama Castle.

Gen-no-Shin himself is listed as a descendant of Gentaro. So you can see that this is several generations down from the earliest smiths, putting your gun into mid Edo perhaps, at least.

 

Spoiler

Sanju Makibari Go-Shu Kunitomo Gen-no-Shin Chin-ei

 

[Bazza]

Piers wrote:

> Sanju Makibari

 

Piers,

Surely it is niju??  The only sanju gun I have ever seen was HUGE and weighed as much as an anchor!!!

 

BaZZa.

[Bugyotsuji]

47 minutes ago, Bazza said:

Piers wrote:

> Sanju Makibari

 

Piers,

Surely it is niju??  The only sanju gun I have ever seen was HUGE and weighed as much as an anchor!!!

 

BaZZa.

*Another mistake on the registration card?!?! Good spot, BaZZa.
I should have looked harder at the barrel itself, instead of laughing at the similarity between Mie 三重 and Sanjū 三重 on the card.

Normally above 二重　they write 惣巻張 Sōmakibari. 

[Marc T]

Hello everyone,

 

You are right. It is a mistake on the registration card. Niju is enough.......Probably the guy from Mie prefecture though it was cool to put the same kanji....!!

 

What about the 2 inlays on the barrels. Any specific meaning?

[Bugyotsuji]

Well the Mon on your Kishu gun is a Kamon, (Futatsu-hikiryo, Futatsu-hiki), popular with several families, which you can look up, and the Mon on your Kunitomo is not clear, but indicates either a Maru ni Katabami, or possibly Aoi, someone related to the Tokugawa family. But be aware that everyone was keen to add a Tokugawa Mon for whatever reason, and these were all very slightly different according to each Tokugawa generation. That is another area of research. Is it genuine, and which one is it?

 

As to the two block characters in seal form on your Kunitomo barrel, I am sure they must be saying something, but what?

 

Essentially, anything along the top of a barrel that gleams in the sun is said to be a distraction to any serious shooter. There were exceptions to the rules, though... 

[Bugyotsuji]

Oh and you spotted the other mistake on the reg card?

[Marc T]

Ahahaha. No . Only spoted this one. Where is the other one?

As for the Kamon, it is Maruni katabami. As for the characters, I have seen them ( or similar) on armor do or Jingasa, but have no idea what they mean neither.

 

If there is a gun from the same gunsmith in Nagahama castle, that will be my next trip destination......

 

Thank you again Tier, very impressive knowledge about the Hinawaju. 

[Bugyotsuji]

 Have a look at the last character of the smith’s name on your gun and then on the card.

珍 with no ‘roof’ on the right.

 

PS Might be an idea to phone in advance to see if their gun is still there and available for viewing! 

[Marc T]

Whaou...!! I Would have never found this one....!!

Very impressive Piers.

 

With or without the gun, this is going to be nice anyway. But you are right. Will check before.

Many thanks for your help on my questions.

[Peter Bleed]

What a wonderful thread! Very informative and positive. NMB at its best! I just made a post to the Ethnographic weapons forum and got directed to Wikipedia! Thank you all!

Peter

[Arthur G]

I have been summoned!

Hey there Marc, super nice Kishu-zutsu there.

I have a few locks and stocks but no barrel, so I'm desperately grifting for measurements and closeups anytime people are willing to share them. I'm planning on making these regularly as the main product for my business, but right now I'm in the stages of making my first "prototype".

If you're up for it, any measurements you can provide of the sights, tenons, pan, basically ANYTHING attached to the barrel. Measurements of the barrel itself, such as the thinnest part on the swamp, how far up that is on the barrel, width at the muzzle and the very tail end, anything helps! No need to take apart the lock for me unless you have real hankering to, I'm pretty well set on that for now. I can tell it's already a true Kishu with the nut, and thankfully I have a couple of complete ones.

Maybe someday when I'm not impoverished I can pick up a complete gun 

[Marc T]

Hello Arthur,

 

No problem. Happy to help. Please wait for the week end. I will have more time to take pictures and measurements.

[Arthur G]

Thanks Marc, no rush! I really appreciate the help.

[Arthur G]

One thing I am in desperate need of is photographs (disassembled) and measurements of a particular type of Ama-ooi seen on Kishu guns, which is the type that uses a screw to retain it. All I can find online are a few scant photos here and there.

This is the type I'm referring to. Unfortunately, the brass parts in this particular collection have been very poorly repolished:

[Marc T]

Hello Arthur,

I am not an expert on Hinawaju, but the screw seems a bit weird. Is this original?. Sometimes people glue it, but with a screw, never seen that. But again, I am not an expert, and if real this must be very unique. Is this only on Kishu guns? Very interesting. 

[Bugyotsuji]

That screw could be new, but everything has been polished so we cannot judge from Sugawa's book alone. External screws were only seen on Satsuma (plus) and Kishu to my knowledge, and internally a 'secret' lock screw in Yonezawa and Kishu. 90%+ of Japanese Tanegashima did not use screws anywhere.

 

Here are two Kishū examples taken from Sawada, a 10 Monme and a 100 Monme. 

 

Photos follow...

 

[Arthur G]

Those are still helpful Piers, appreciate it!

So far I've tracked down three types of ama-ooi, but this is the only one I haven't gotten any good details on so far. 

[Arthur G]

Alright, one other request here Marc, can you measure for me how deeply the bisen is threaded into the breech? 

Thanks!

[Marc T]

Hello Arthur,

Please, find attached some pictures. Let me know if this is what you are looking for. 
Hope it helps.

[Marc T]

More pictures.

[Marc T]

More again

for the Bizen, it was very very hard to open, and my friend gunsmith took a lot of time to open it. Originally it was in its right position (you can with the color difference on the barrel. it was so tight, that ever air and rust could get to it.

after opening it, you can see the maximum I can close it. Far from the desired position. What I am doing is the stop 1/4 before to match the stock.

the Bizen is very tight, and almost no room between the Bizen and the barrel. I believe it was only used a few times, and because the Bizen rusted, not used for a long long time.......

 

Considering it’s very good condition and strength  I will use it for shooting.

 

PS: note the matching number on the Bizen and barrel

[Marc T]

Sorry Arthur,

seems that I cannot send more pictures... I exceed what I can send apparently..😩will try again tomorrow.

That’s all for now.

cheers