Light weight/Dress Shingunto

[ribendao]

Just found this online and ordered it. Am I safe to assume its a lightweight gunto like from page 160 from Dawson's book? Or is it possibly some sort of replica? Would love to hear your opinions.

Thanks 

[Shamsy]

Looks like a LWG but it is missing the habaki sadly. Condition is not great, bit these are pretty darn rare so better to have an example and maybe upgrade in the future. I don't mean that in any derogatory way, I do the same with my own collecting.

[ribendao]

Some of the other examples in Dawson's book (like on pg. 156) are also missing the habaki. The type 19 dress swords are also without habaki I think, so it makes sense that this would also not have one, right?  My main concern was that someone took a type 19 dress sword blade and put it in a type 98 mountings. But the proportions look small/correct and the ito wrap looks professional enough I suppose. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It has a dress sword blade without habaki. The mounts are very early Type 94 pattern, missing the 2nd hanger, great find. 

[Shamsy]

42 minutes ago, ribendao said:

Some of the other examples in Dawson's book (like on pg. 156) are also missing the habaki. The type 19 dress swords are also without habaki I think, so it makes sense that this would also not have one, right?  My main concern was that someone took a type 19 dress sword blade and put it in a type 98 mountings. But the proportions look small/correct and the ito wrap looks professional enough I suppose. 

 

If other examples don't have the habaki, then that's a good indicator the sword is correct. I made an assumption they would have a habaki and I think the example Neil used to own did have a habaki? I'll see if I can find the photo before he sees this.

 

The blade looks fine, I don't think there are people bodging up LWG. If you remove the tsuka you could easily check and see if everything lines up and has not been tampered with. The dress swords have screw fittings I believe so that should be obvious to see?

 

None of this is my area of experience, so I'll leave it for others with more knowledge to continue contributing.

[PNSSHOGUN]

From what I can understand both types of dress blade with/without habaki are correct. Considering how early the mounts look the Habaki version may have come later on. 

[ribendao]

Wow that one looks a lot nicer than mine. I also noticed mine is missing the suspension ring. Like I said, the sword is not in hand yet. Once I get it I might take it Apart and do an update.

[IJASWORDS]

The photo above was mine, and sold it last year. Jonathan, just be aware parts are impossible to find, and full size gunto parts don't interchange. 

[ribendao]

1 minute ago, IJASWORDS said:

The photo above was mine, and sold it last year. Jonathan, just be aware parts are impossible to find, and full size gunto parts don't interchange. 

Haha wow what are the odds. I’ll take good care of it for you.

[Shamsy]

No, Neil is saying the photo i posted is his..... I am pretty sure. Remember when I said:

 

1 hour ago, Shamsy said:

I made an assumption they would have a habaki and I think the example Neil used to own did have a habaki? I'll see if I can find the photo before he sees this

 

But you'll not find parts sadly. These swords are rare in the real sense.

[ribendao]

Ah I see. I wish it was his as neils was a lot nicer. Yeah I had a feeling I found a rare one when I saw it listed. Not sure if I’ll keep it or trade it for something else yet. Not even sure what the value is because I think I got it for a pretty good price.

[Shamsy]

If you look in the for sale section, I think Neil's sword is listed there, so you can see what he sold it for. Was a very nice example though.

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm wondering if it's chromed.  I have one that's chromed.  They experimented with chrome for a little bit, trying to avoid rust, but found the steel still suffered from rust anyway, so it was dropped.

 

[Shamsy]

Wasn't the plating just to make it look good, Bruce? As with the false acid etch hamon? These are not practical use swords.

 

It was 95s that were chromed to preserve them for issuing, but that did indeed fail miserably.

[Ontario_Archaeology]

Here are a few pictures of my lightweight.. 

[Ontario_Archaeology]

A difference I see is the first post has a thick tsuba where as the other two do not. 

[reeder]

Wish he had the $150 BIN when I looked at it a few days ago! Nice buy. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

How much smaller is the Ashi on your lightweight compared to a regular Ashi? If Matt happens to have another Type 94 or removable Ashi perhaps he can see if the dimensions are similar?

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, Shamsy said:

Wasn't the plating just to make it look good, Bruce? As with the false acid etch hamon? These are not practical use swords.

 

It was 95s that were chromed to preserve them for issuing, but that did indeed fail miserably.

You may be right.  I cannot find where I had read that, so it's possible I've blended the discussions in my memory.

 

Edit/Update: I did blend the memory.  I found the statement I had read from a World Renowned Gunto expert, right here on our own NMB!:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23234-chromed-and-fullered-type-98/?do=findComment&comment=235536

and like you said, he was discussing the Type 95.

[Dave R]

 Chroming a blade seems to be fairly common in the early 20th C and not just on Shin Gunto. I think it comes under the heading of "one of those good ideas, that didn't work out".

[ribendao]

Received my LWG quicker than expected. It had a clan mon on it I’m hoping someone can identify for me. Picture below.

 

[ribendao]

One more pic for size comparison.

 

[Kiipu]

Are there any markings on the sword?  Also, is the blade chromed and acid etched like a dress sword?  Does the blade have an edge to it?  What is the weight of the sword in relation to the other sword pictured?  Does the scabbard show evidence of a second hanger at one time?

 

This one seems smaller than the one Bruce has.  Possibly a different maker and a different purpose in mind.

Chromed And Fullered Type 98

[ribendao]

The blade appears to be The exact style as the type 19 dress swords. Acid etched Hamon and chrome plated. No edge on the place either. As for the fittings every thing seems to be the same as a typical type 98 except proportioned smaller. The only difference I noticed is the throat of the scabbard seems to be slightly different. I do not see any evidence there was a second hanger. I will attach photos I thought were relevant and let you decide.

[ribendao]

More pics. This one side by side with a standard type 19 dress saber. Also the LWG is slightly less heavy than a standard type 98. I’d guess maybe 1-3 lbs lighter.

 

 

[Kiipu]

This does indeed appear to be a lightweight army Type 98 dress sword.  Note that the fittings are all sized smaller and this would require molds to manufacture.  Definitely not a custom sword.  Note the pierced crossguard (tsuba).  Next time you have the sword disassembled, I would like to see pictures of both sides of the nakago.  In the meantime, can you measure the width of the blade were it meets the crossguard.  I will ask Bruce to do the same on his and lets see what happens.

[ribendao]

I measured the blade and it appeared to be exactly 0.9 inches. I attempted to poke out the menuki but couldn’t get it to budge. One side of the menuki Ana is covered by the ito wrap. I was able to move it a little but the ito wrap is so tight and fragile I would rather not futz with it for now.

 

ps. Any one know what clan the mon is?

[Kiipu]

5 minutes ago, ribendao said:

ps. Any one know what clan the mon is?

 

Thanks for the prompt reply. In regards to the mon, post the picture in the thread below.

Help Identity Our Mons.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, ribendao said:

0.9 inches.

My chromed blade is 1.05 in. (26.7mm) at the edge of the habaki.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It is a Type 94 without question and would've had a 2nd hanger.