SNLF gunto on Hainan Island 1941

[MarcoUdin]

Somebody on gunboards posted this pic talking about the pistol holster, but I'm just curious as to why the lieutenants tsuka on the Gunto is solid white.

Or maybe it's just the pic that makes it look that way? Opinions?

 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It has been wrapped with linen to protect the Tsuka-Ito.

[MarcoUdin]

I assumed it was that John, but when I zoomed in i thought it looked as though the ridges were of the wrap itself.

 

I'm probably just looking too hard at something that's not there. Thanks for the reassurance.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The ones seen in photos do tend to be very tightly wrapped so the diamonds show through, it's quite rare to see surviving examples now.

[vajo]

Yes many old photos show that canvas or linen protection. I think it is a sheet of bamboo colored canvas.

[David Flynn]

I think it's a Civilian Tachi.

[Dave R]

2 hours ago, David Flynn said:

I think it's a Civilian Tachi.

 

 It could be so, but double hangers were a feature of Naval swords. I think it is an old sword but with a sewn on leather cover, and double hangers fitted on leather straps under the cover. Traditional and Kai-Gunto haikan were bigger and more elaborate.

 According to Mr Komiya over on Warrelics.eu the NLF was far from elite and at the bottom of supply chains. That said, a lot of old swords were carried and used in this manner.

 

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/Japanese-navy-canteen-664051-2/?highlight=reservists 

[David Flynn]

Check the Tsuba, as well.

[Bruce Pennington]

You can see some more pictures of similar wrap  here: Gunto at War.

[IJASWORDS]

This is a linen example, has yellowed with age, I am sure many souvenir hunters ripped them off. Luckily this is one of the rare ones that survived.   

[MarcoUdin]

Thanks to everybody for the information, guess I was just used to seeing the new pictures which the color was similar to Neil's, a dark beige. And not a bright white which took me by surprise, i also didn't realize they were so tightly put on, was under the assumption they were a flimsy piece of cloth wrapped on it for temporary use.

[zuiho]

    That is a great photo in that it associates a particular style of gunto with the NLF. I believe I see a blurry anchor on the man's cap.

  Allow me to post what I believe was a gunto carried by an NLF officer. It has a koto blade, tired and possibly re-tempered.

  It has a  poorly made civilian Showa-era tsuka with plain brass fuchi-kashira, old iron plate tsuba, and plain wood saya

   with black leather cover and  two leather hangers with brass D-rings. A basic rig for  an officer of limited means.

 

 

   I believe  its similarity to the sword of the NLF officer in the photo is clear.

 

  William G.

[PNSSHOGUN]

You will certainly find examples of Shin/Kai Gunto with a normal regulation Tsuka and that field type saya as well. 

[Paul G]

I read an account of a Pacific war vet who stated that there was a rumor amongst the GI's who believed there were precious gems wrapped into the Tsuka Ito of swords. He wrote that many a sword suffered the handle unwrapping by the fellows looking for gems. 

 

PG-

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Paul G said:

I read an account of a Pacific war vet who stated that there was a rumor amongst the GI's who believed there were precious gems wrapped into the Tsuka Ito of swords. He wrote that many a sword suffered the handle unwrapping by the fellows looking for gems. 

 

PG-

My dad's Mantetsu had several metal fitting pieces stolen while he was in the Marines.  He said they were "hoping to find jewels."  Took me 2 years to replace the parts!

[Dave R]

On 3/8/2021 at 10:00 PM, MarcoUdin said:

Thanks to everybody for the information, guess I was just used to seeing the new pictures which the color was similar to Neil's, a dark beige. And not a bright white which took me by surprise, i also didn't realize they were so tightly put on, was under the assumption they were a flimsy piece of cloth wrapped on it for temporary use.

 

 They varied a lot..... Sometimes you got carefully stitched and shrunk on leather covers as well, as seen in the red outlined picture. Also note the wrapped saya in the pic.next to it.

[IJASWORDS]

Dave, this is a laced up leather tzuka cover, and matches the lace up saya cover. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

From a practical standpoint I would prefer linen, wouldn't get slick when wet and easier to replace when needed. 

[Dave R]

6 hours ago, IJASWORDS said:

Dave, this is a laced up leather tzuka cover, and matches the lace up saya cover. 

 

 I have seen a few of them, (personal opinion)  I think that given the smooth finish, the bulk and the lacing, that they would have been removed before combat, when possible.

[Dave R]

2 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

From a practical standpoint I would prefer linen, wouldn't get slick when wet and easier to replace when needed. 

 

 I have read elsewhere that the tight shrunk and sewn on leather covers were a quick and dirty fix for dubious tsuka on donated swords. You also see them in place of the ito, straight over the same or bare wood tsuka. 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Some interesting photos found on yahoo.jp showing various swords used by SNLF troops:

 

[Jareth]

As a collector of SNLF/NLF ,based on period photos as well as my opinion I believe in the early stages of war in China most carried family or civilian swords slightly modified for combat 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 8/30/2023 at 3:12 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

various swords used by SNLF troops:

Good discussion held by Austin Adachi on this thread - Album - The Life of a Shanghai SNLF Officer; Wehrmacht-awards.  Discussing their use of Army swords, he said:

" I've been looking at IJN documents a bit to try and figure out their sword situation more. The IJN purchased some 300 swords in 1932 which appear to be army sabers. Later in the mid 1930's the Shanghai SNLF kept a supply of 33 "Gunto Model A" (軍刀甲) to issue to warrant officers and above. We can see in photos it's often line commissioned officers carrying Type 94 swords and non-line and warrant/special duty officers carrying Army sabers (Type 19s?) unless they have their own they brought with them. I'm hoping to find navy purchase records for Type 94 swords in the future."

Front row left to right: Supply Chief, Chief of Staff, Commander, Medical Chief, Engineering Chief

 

You can see that they were even using Army tassels: