Another two for ID

[TomMcRei]

I found these two for sale and would like to get some opinions about it.

 

First one 80mm x 77mm x 5mm, signed

 

 

Second one

 

83mm x 75mm x 4,5mm

 

 

[TomMcRei]

Any thoughts about these two? Age and style/school?

There is a mei on first one with Tokugawa mon, but I can`t read it

I would like to know something more from experienced collectors on NMB.

[PietroParis]

2 hours ago, TomMcRei said:

There is a mei on first one with Tokugawa mon, but I can`t read it

 

I'd say either 正艮 Masanaga or 正良 Masayoshi + kao (artist's seal)

[Spartancrest]

I can't help but notice the loss of three mon on that first guard, two on the omote and one on the ura. The other mon look likely to fall off as well given the edge damage around each of the remaining ones. Any moisture will lift them. 

[sabiji]

...or, what I rather believe, they were removed on purpose. On the Omote it would have been outside, more visible Mon.
Probably it was also no Aoi Mon, what was removed...

[Ford Hallam]

The Brass mon on the Masdanaga look very unusual to my eyes. They appear to be applied on top of the surface, rather than inlaid, but there's no evidence of nunome-zogan cross-hatching. Also, the cut out details on the leaves of the mon are very delicate, but one or two details/irregularities seem to be repeated on both remaining mon. This leads me to suspect that they are modern laser cut stencils. Their actual placement of the iron plate looks awkward to my "Edo eyes' too

[TomMcRei]

I am afraid that You are right, those mons look like exact copies.

 

 

[sabiji]

I would like to learn.
I'm sure I'm wrong, but to me the insert does not look nunome, but very flat hirazogan. At the edges to the mon, the material of the tsuba seems slightly raised. In Tony's enlarged pictures (thanks for that), you can see a fine groove even on the left Mon at the missing part at 12 o'clock.

And why shouldn't stencils have been used earlier for efficient work? Such tsuba were certainly not unique, but were produced in small series.

For me, the tsuba seems quite normal as a work from the Bakumatsu or early Meiji.

 

[Curran]

4 hours ago, sabiji said:

...or, what I rather believe, they were removed on purpose.

That was my thought.

 

[Geraint]

Dear Thomas.  

 

Quote

but to me the insert does not look nunome, but very flat hirazogan

 

Hirazogan would suggest a depression cut into the plate and the design inserted into it, no signs of that here, especially if you look at the areas where mon have been lost or removed.  I believe the signs you are seeing are the edge of whatever adhesive was used to affix the mon.  As Ford points out there are no signs of the ground preparation for nunome zogan either.  The plate itself is probably a perfectly normal tsuba made more saleable by the application of a few mon.  If these are brass then cutting them with a CNC machine is not a problem, cutting them by hand would be tricky to say the least.

 

This is something to look out for but it is a simple case of adding detail and hopefully value to a run of the mill tsuba.

 

All the best.

[TomMcRei]

On 2/27/2021 at 9:32 PM, TomMcRei said:

83mm x 75mm x 4,5mm

 

 

What do You think about second one?