Muramasa tanto

[Karu]

Hello,

 

You must have seen this beautiful muramasa tanto for sale : https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t794351476 just sold for 300 000 yens 

 

I got few questions, knowing the tanto is not NBTHK certified, what shows that it is 2nd Gen Muramasa if it is ? Gunome midare perfectly executed ?  What prove the authenticity of his history ? Seller says it was handed down as a relic of the famous general, Yukimura Sanada. Rokumonsen ?

Or is it gimei ? 

 

I assume that could be a museum piece, what would be the real value of this ? 

Thank you

[YOJIMBO]

gimei

[Brian]

It sold for around $3K?
You can be VERY sure it is VERY gimei.

[Hoshi]

Extremely Gimei example. 

[SteveM]

Price for an authenticated Muramasa... probably north of $30,000 nowadays. 

[16k]

Gimei, and a very obvious one.

[Stephen]

Going once going twice. Do i hear one more gimei??

[YOJIMBO]

GIMEI, GIMEI, GIMEI

if a Japanese man sells a sword without a document, I don't trust him in principle.

[JH Lee]

55 minutes ago, YOJIMBO said:

GIMEI, GIMEI, GIMEI

if a Japanese man sells a sword without a document, I don't trust him in principle.

 

Um.... what....

[ChrisW]

He says this because, generally speaking, only problematic swords are sold outside of Japan if they're in Japan to start with at such low prices. Aka this "Muramasa" tanto. Swords with defects or gimei are common swords to be sold from Japan because at the end of the day, profit margins rule, and they can make more money off a misinformed/gullible foreigner.

[JH Lee]

Just now, ChrisW said:

He says this because, generally speaking, only problematic swords are sold outside of Japan if they're in Japan to start with at such low prices. Aka this "Muramasa" tanto. Swords with defects or gimei are common swords to be sold from Japan because at the end of the day, profit margins rule, and they can make more money off a misinformed/gullible foreigner.

 

I see.  Thank you for the clarification.

[Shugyosha]

Also, if a blade by an important smith is sold in Japan without papers, where there is easy access to the shinsa process, then it’s probably gimei.
That’s the reason they are sold to westerners who are less clued up on the authentication system and inclined to believe the back story about it belonging to a notable samurai. 
 

Give it a few months and it will pop up on here with someone asking for an opinion or trying to sell it on having realised what he got (didn’t get).  

[ChrisW]

11 minutes ago, Shugyosha said:

Also, if a blade by an important smith is sold in Japan without papers, where there is easy access to the shinsa process, then it’s probably gimei.
That’s the reason they are sold to westerners who are less clued up on the authentication system and inclined to believe the back story about it belonging to a notable samurai. 
 

Give it a few months and it will pop up on here with someone asking for an opinion or trying to sell it on having realised what he got (didn’t get).  

 

 

^This. Seen it multiple times.

[vajo]

Muromasa in Japan with no shinsa - 100% gimei. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

And what do you think you would get if you remove the signature ? 3rd gen ?

[Rivkin]

Nice sue-koto Mino tanto. Not Muramasa's style. The signature is relatively well done, probably not that long ago.

[Bruce Pennington]

Anyone know that mon on the habaki?

[Toryu2020]

真田六文銭

Rokumonsen - Six mon coins, usually associated with the Sanada family.

-t

[Bruce Pennington]

23 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Six mon coins,

Thanks Thomas!

[Bugyotsuji]

On 2/28/2021 at 6:07 AM, vajo said:

Muromasa in Japan with no shinsa - 100% gimei. 

Muramasa with various types of shinsa - 50% gimei.

[Stephen]

Muramasa on my nightstand=priceless!

[Karusk]

Alot of muramasa gimei were done in the bakumatsu period.  Ive seen a couple obvious gimei murmasa go for a couple thousand dollars on ebay. One the seller was even quite clear about the fact that it was gimei. It sold for around 4k. So someone thought it was worthy of collecting. I did. 

 

Ive seen it said a few times here. Its worth what someone will pay for it. Obvious gimei? Yeah. Worthless? No. Its worth 300k yen to someone. That koshirae is probably worth a chunk of yen too. 
 

for 3k in that koshirae i think they hit around the actual value of the blade. These gimei were more often done to supply a demand for muramasa blades than to defraud someone in the modern market. 

 

I personally think that would be an exceptional talking point. Any opinions on their worthiness to collect?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AY-82-Very-old-Blade-SAGAMINO-KUNI-SADAMUNE-sign-NANBOKUCHYOU-age/324282305398#vi__app-cvip-panel
 

Here is a very old gimei. Someone paid 4600 for it. Like today actually i had checked it yesterday. IMO this gimei was probably done to hide the original maker. Possibly a muramasa. There was another smith(name escapes me) that has alot of gimei done to his work to prevent it from being confiscated because the emperor wanted all of his swords for his own daiymo. The mei is very worn but there are 0 examples of a sadamune signature existing. When i asked koushya was very honest please dont judge him poorly. His collection is impeccable and a good portion of my papered collection came from him. 
 

My point is no one is out there ruining blades in modern times. They weren’t  doing this to deceive you. They were doing it to deceive someone 170 years ago. 

Im new here do your worst😑

[JH Lee]

Sometimes I wonder if at least some gimei were done as a token of admiration/flattery and not strictly to fool a buyer.... 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Personally, I'd rather have a mumei than gimei, all other things being equal.  But either way, I will prioritize quality/state of preservation over the mei in decisions about what I want to buy/collect.

 

[Karusk]

@JH LeeThese specifically were done more as a political statement. There is a long history/legend of Muramasa being hated by Tokugawa ieyasu even though he actually collected them and most of his daiymo had them.

 

My point is even gimei has its place in the history and  study of nihonto. Someone clearly cared enough for this blade to keep it in such good condition and pay for  that lacquered box. (Which honestly i got a thing for boxes and that one does it for me🥵) The polish also looks fresh and i know you all know how expensive that is. 
 

IMO whoever picked this up got a decent deal and probably knew exactly what he was paying for( that sweet sweet box🤤)
 

 

 

 

[JH Lee]

I tend to agree with you.  Also, I would assume that a gimei with a "big" name would need to have been made relatively well (at least above average?) if it would have hope of fooling a buyer.  But that's just conjecture on my part.  

[Karusk]

Thanks. I was honestly expecting to get sent before a firing squad here with that opinion. 
 

Most of what i have seen sell on ebay were decent looking blades with flashy hamons and horimono. The one i tried to get that sold for 4k had an extremely nice koshirae and a horimono that had been polished at least once or twice. So i figured it was an old horimono if not an original one. 
 

 If you like a blade and turn your nose up to it because it was relatively cheap then you lose out. 
 

If this shows up for 3k I’ll gladly take it. 

[Hoshi]

Go for quality. Some gimei blades are of high-quality. This is rather the exception than the rule, but one can typically find Shinshinto stunners with gimei throwbacks to Nanbokucho top smiths, along with all sorts of deceptive elements such as artificially aged nakago, extra mekugi-ana, etc. 

 

I would take a beautiful Shinshinto gimei to Kanemitsu over a run-of-the-mill soshin muromachi sukesada any day. Shinto and Shinshinto high quality swords get their value literally obliterated down 80-90% when they are mumei or gimei. So if you're hunting for top quality and on a strict budget, this is where to look for. You'll never know who made it as attributions in the latter periods on mumei blades are (mostly) statements of quality. 

 

But one needs to train the eye...it's an ongoing process. 

 

The blade above doesn't fit in this category. 

 

These dress-up packages on YJP, you need to think of all the elements as recently cobbled-up together, including boxes, fake Kinzogan or Kinpun, fake honami docs, fake sayagaki etc fake (and ugly) habaki...These guys run a business of turning low-grade shinto-to-gendai blades into national treasures. It's an investment for them to get the dress-up "done right" - so expect to pay for it. Much much cheaper to get an "honest gimei"

 

[Karusk]

Its not like someone paid 10gs for it or anything.  It sold for 2800 bucks at an auction.