is this gunto ?

[samusamu]

hii

meybe this real gunto?

no mekugi in tsuka

any help would  appreciated

thank's

regards

 

 

[JH Lee]

[samusamu]

4 minutes ago, JH Lee said:

 

thank you. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Not so fast, dude.  These are being discussed here: 

 

We have a few examples, all the same style.  Thomas (Kiipu) says: "

I have been able to tentatively identify these swords as made in Indonesia, formally Dutch East Indies, during the 1943 to 1945 time frame by the Japanese army.  The Japanese Army established an arsenal at Bandung バンドン, Java, in October 1943.  I think this arsenal is probably the source for these swords.  If not the actual source, then the arsenal supervised the production of them.

 

The British landed on the island after the war and that is why they are showing up in the United Kingdom on a consistent basis"

 

Can you show us the nakago (tang) and any stamps, if present?

[Dave R]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Not so fast, dude.  These are being discussed here: 

 

We have a few examples, all the same style.  Thomas (Kiipu) says: "

I have been able to tentatively identify these swords as made in Indonesia, formally Dutch East Indies, during the 1943 to 1945 time frame by the Japanese army.  The Japanese Army established an arsenal at Bandung バンドン, Java, in October 1943.  I think this arsenal is probably the source for these swords.  If not the actual source, then the arsenal supervised the production of them.

 

The British landed on the island after the war and that is why they are showing up in the United Kingdom on a consistent basis"

 

Can you show us the nakago (tang) and any stamps, if present?

 

 I agree, it is at least a contender and certainly not a Chinese fake. Some people on this site are all to quick to label anything they don't recognise as a fake, I wonder if they get a thrill out of it?

[JH Lee]

25 minutes ago, Dave R said:

 

 I agree, it is at least a contender and certainly not a Chinese fake. Some people on this site are all to quick to label anything they don't recognise as a fake, I wonder if they get a thrill out of it?

 

I'm not too proud to admit that I simply didn't know that something which looks like the sword in this thread could be a genuine Japanese gunto.  🤷🏻‍♂️

[Kiipu]

Amazing! And now they are showing up in the country in which they were made in.  The Japanese arsenal was headquartered in Bandung and the commanding officer was Major General Ando Shoichi 安藤･ 正一少将.  He was appointed to the position on 1943-09-13.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Amazing! And now they are showing up in the country in which they were made in.  The Japanese arsenal was headquartered in Bandung and the commanding officer was Major General Ando Shoichi 安藤･ 正一少将.  He was appointed to the position on 1943-09-13.

Thomas,

Please let us know what you've discovered.  This is groundbreaking news.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, JH Lee said:

 

I'm not too proud to admit that I simply didn't know that something which looks like the sword in this thread could be a genuine Japanese gunto.  🤷🏻‍♂️

John,

In the last year of the war, the Allied bombing was doing so much damage to mainland weapons production, including swords, they shipped the production out to China and occupied lands, like Indonesia.  The mil specs were loosened to allow expediting production.  You can read my quote of Nick Komiya's discussion of this issue here:

 

[lonely panet]

its not a gunto,  and its not ground breaking, and its Japanese.

[Dave R]

5 hours ago, JH Lee said:

 

I'm not too proud to admit that I simply didn't know that something which looks like the sword in this thread could be a genuine Japanese gunto.  🤷🏻‍♂️

 

 And well done to you to admit this. There is currently a lot of of research and revelation about these late war swords that upsets all the old certainties. They are not nihonto but they are "end of series" for Japanese swords made for  use in combat.  Some better, some very much worse, all carried by proud members of the Imperial Japanese Army, prepared to die for their country, and to be respected as such.

[lonely panet]

12 hours ago, Hamish said:

its not a gunto,  and its not ground breaking, and its Japanese.

i mis typed, sorry guys ITS NOT Japanese

[Dave R]

2 hours ago, Hamish said:

i mis typed, sorry guys ITS NOT Japanese

 

 It is Japanese army though, and this site is "militaria.co.za", and this page is titled "Military Swords of Japan", note the recurrent themes of  Japanese and military. If it's not your thing, that's OK, you are not forced to join in the conversation. 

 It is a gunto, new to us all, certainly to me, and a late war one and we know that because instead of dismissing it out of hand we did the research, and have added to the pool of knowledge of such.

To quote my old Guru, "fight for your limitations, and they are all yours!"

[JH Lee]

It's really interesting that, even as they were losing the war, with dwindling supplies and manufacturing capacity, the Japanese wanted to keep equipping their officers with a symbol like the sword on a modern battlefield.  

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, JH Lee said:

It's really interesting that, even as they were losing the war, with dwindling supplies and manufacturing capacity, the Japanese wanted to keep equipping their officers with a symbol like the sword on a modern battlefield.  

Interesting indeed.  To the Westerner, a sword was just another weapon, one that was pretty much outdated when gunpowder got invented.  But to the Japanese, the roots go much deeper and it's significance tied to Japan's soul.  I read someplace that in the initial surrender and turn-in of weapons, the soldiers weren't expecting to have to turn in their swords.  And true or not, I read that the Allies forced them to do it intentionally as punishment, to humiliate them.  MacArthur was eventually convinced that if he wanted the Japanese to have spirit in rebuilding commerce, he needed to change the sword surrender policy and let them have some pride back.

[lonely panet]

8 hours ago, Dave R said:

 

 It is Japanese army though, and this site is "militaria.co.za", and this page is titled "Military Swords of Japan", note the recurrent themes of  Japanese and military. If it's not your thing, that's OK, you are not forced to join in the conversation. 

 It is a gunto, new to us all, certainly to me, and a late war one and we know that because instead of dismissing it out of hand we did the research, and have added to the pool of knowledge of such.

To quote my old Guru, "fight for your limitations, and they are all yours!"

the second you can find real photographic proof that these were infact issued to Japanese troop i will change my tune.  there were approx 100,000 chinese solders under the control of the IJA, not to mention other smaller countrys. if IT WAS made by another nation whom was under that banner. it still dosnt make it a IJA issied sword.

 

 

 

until then i think your all grasping at straws.  and FYI, a fellow collecter of mine has one. i studied it in hand "have you dont this " ?, there junk. to call them late was in rough to the poorly made late war swords. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Hamish
I don't think this sword was Japanese-made and issue to Japanese troops either. But, the Japanese and Chinese all called the military sword 軍刀 （Gunto/JunDao).

So, It is a Gunto, just not for the IJA.

[Dave R]

2 hours ago, Hamish said:

the second you can find real photographic proof that these were infact issued to Japanese troop i will change my tune.  there were approx 100,000 chinese solders under the control of the IJA, not to mention other smaller countrys. if IT WAS made by another nation whom was under that banner. it still dosnt make it a IJA issied sword.

 

 

 

until then i think your all grasping at straws.  and FYI, a fellow collecter of mine has one. i studied it in hand "have you dont this " ?, there junk. to call them late was in rough to the poorly made late war swords. 

 

 And how will we know one way or the other, unless we investigate, research, discuss and share?

[Dave R]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Interesting indeed.  To the Westerner, a sword was just another weapon, one that was pretty much outdated when gunpowder got invented.  But to the Japanese, the roots go much deeper and it's significance tied to Japan's soul.  I read someplace that in the initial surrender and turn-in of weapons, the soldiers weren't expecting to have to turn in their swords.  And true or not, I read that the Allies forced them to do it intentionally as punishment, to humiliate them.  MacArthur was eventually convinced that if he wanted the Japanese to have spirit in rebuilding commerce, he needed to change the sword surrender policy and let them have some pride back.

 

 Pressure from the allies.

 

[lonely panet]

58 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Hamish
I don't think this sword was Japanese-made and issue to Japanese troops either. But, the Japanese and Chinese all called the military sword 軍刀 （Gunto/JunDao).

So, It is a Gunto, just not for the IJA.

On that logic, yes i will come to the party.

A non Japanese gunto wasn't what i was debating over 

[Brian]

How about we don't decide for others what they are interested in?
Hamish, I'm surprised at you for even doing this. As someone who collects what many Japanese sword collectors regard as mass produced and not art, just weapons....surely you know more than most not to decide what others consider collectible?
You made your opinion known. Now it's time to drop it and leave others to enjoy what they enjoy.

[samusamu]

thank you for all comment, 

very interesting.

this sword found in java indonesia

friend try offering me this sword

thank you for all opinion, really appreciated.

 

meybe this soldier useing this sword model

 

[Shamsy]

It is such a shame that the photographs of the time can be so hard to make out clearly. The wrap on the sword in the first photograph sure appears to be the same style... but is that a brass tsuba? I just can't make it out.

 

It would be good to see what is on the nakago (if anything) of the sword... should the handle be possible to remove.

 

I'll share what I popped together after a 'Chinese fake' was discovered to be a Javanese sword and people started to share photographs.

 

[Kiipu]

45 minutes ago, Shamsy said:

I'll share what I popped together after a 'Chinese fake' was discovered to be a Javanese sword and people started to share photographs.

 

Those are coming from below.  That is one of the better marked examples of the Java-tō.

An Appraisal on Some Japanese Swords Please Sword Number 3

 

marsel (Samusamu)

Thank you for sharing pictures of this interesting sword.  I am of the personal opinion that these swords were intended for use by Pembela Tanah Air (PETA).

 

The top picture that Shamsy posted above is coming from the Pembela Tanah Air [Defenders of the Homeland] Museum in Indonesia.  Possibly you can contact them for more information about those two swords.

http://www.disparbud.jabarprov.go.id/wisata/dest-det.php?id=398&lang=id

Here is an English link to the same museum.

Pembela Tanah Air Museum

 

Keep us posted if you should learn anything more about this sword variation.

[Kiipu]

3 hours ago, Shamsy said:

 

 

 

Stegel is the source for this picture and has posted it on several forums.

Senior NCO Sword, Post #25

Was There Any Type Of Production ..., Post #29

 

[samusamu]

the mei is

5 hours ago, Shamsy said:

It is such a shame that the photographs of the time can be so hard to make out clearly. The wrap on the sword in the first photograph sure appears to be the same style... but is that a brass tsuba? I just can't make it out.

 

It would be good to see what is on the nakago (if anything) of the sword... should the handle be possible to remove.

 

I'll share what I popped together after a 'Chinese fake' was discovered to be a Javanese sword and people started to share photographs.

 

 

the mei in katakana "sumaran"

sword making in the city of central java, "semarang" 98 style

this book reference the "sumaran"

 

this my friend sword, and far away from me, i try to tell but so hard to find the mekugi ana.

 

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

What book is this?

[samusamu]

4 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Those are coming from below.  That is one of the better marked examples of the Java-tō.

An Appraisal on Some Japanese Swords Please Sword Number 3

 

marsel (Samusamu)

Thank you for sharing pictures of this interesting sword.  I am of the personal opinion that these swords were intended for use by Pembela Tanah Air (PETA).

 

The top picture that Shamsy posted above is coming from the Pembela Tanah Air [Defenders of the Homeland] Museum in Indonesia.  Possibly you can contact them for more information about those two swords.

http://www.disparbud.jabarprov.go.id/wisata/dest-det.php?id=398&lang=id

Here is an English link to the same museum.

Pembela Tanah Air Museum

 

Keep us posted if you should learn anything more about this sword variation.

hay

yes this from PETA officer

but the museum show the fake. meybe hard to find a real one

[Kiipu]

57 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

What book is this?

 

That is the 1986 F&G book.  In the back of the book, there is a handful of oshigata.

 

Fuller, Richard, and Ron Gregory. Military Swords of Japan, 1868–1945. London, GB: Arms and Armour, 1986.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Thanks Thomas