Do Shoshin and Gimei refer to the sword or mei

[Freddie]

Hi guys,

 

I know that the Torokusho it self is not an authencating document. But according to http://www.jssus.org/nkp/japanese_sword_laws.html. the Torokusho should include, according to my reading at least, if the mei is Shoshin or gimei.

This is how they write it on the webpage:

”It should be noted that the Torokusho is not a certificate of authenticity; only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are stated, whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei 偽銘).”

Question: Does this mean that if I have a Torokusho for my blade saying Shoshin, does that mean that the signature, the sword or both is authentic?

 

To put it simple: Do the term shoshin and gimei refer to the mei and the sword in the Torokusho?

[Shugyosha]

Freddie, it’s not that clear, but, what I believe  this is saying is that the Mei on the sword will be recorded on the torokusho irrespective of whether it is genuine or false. It does not express an opinion as to whether it is genuine or false and so is not a certificate of authenticity. 
 

No one who has been around this hobby for any time treats the torokusho as authenticating a sword’s signature. 

[Brian]

They didn't phrase it well. They are saying it lists the name inscribed on the sword (irrespective of whether) it is genuine or not.

[Freddie]

5 hours ago, Brian said:

They didn't phrase it well. They are saying it lists the name inscribed on the sword (irrespective of whether) it is genuine or not.

I totally agree with you.

do you know where  I can find an original translation to see what the rules say exactly?

 

When you put like that it all make since.

[Freddie]

5 hours ago, Shugyosha said:

Freddie, it’s not that clear, but, what I believe  this is saying is that the Mei on the sword will be recorded on the torokusho irrespective of whether it is genuine or false. It does not express an opinion as to whether it is genuine or false and so is not a certificate of authenticity. 
 

No one who has been around this hobby for any time treats the torokusho as authenticating a sword’s signature. 

I guys Brian nailed it.

But there must be some site that have the correct translation.

[Bazza]

This is Japanese , Freddie mate...

BaZZa. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Freddie, are you wanting a) the correct translation of your registration certificate, or b) the correct translation of the webpage you linked above?

 

As to your question: 

Question: Does this mean that if I have a Torokusho for my blade saying Shoshin, does that mean that the signature, the sword or both is authentic?

 

Answer 1: The Torokusho will not say Shoshin (or Gimei either) so no need to worry about that.

 

Answer 2: If you are asking about any authenticity paperwork from an evaluation service, (not the Torokusho Registration card) Shoshin will mean that they recognize the signature as genuine and fitting with the work. *Gimei on the other hand will mean that the signature is suspect or plain wrong, regardless of the quality of the blade. 

[Brian]

Translation of what exactly? The torokusho lists the size of your sword, what it is (wakizashi, katana etc) and what the signature (if any) reads. The rest of it is just legal license stuff....registration of the sword. All swords have to be registered in Japan. Nothing on that document that a ruler and your eyes can't tell you.

[Guido]

13 hours ago, Brian said:

They didn't phrase it well.

 

"They" is probably me in this case - it sounds very much like something I wrote 12 or so years ago, and later changed to >regardless of whether<. Well, that's what you get when a non-native speaker like me butchers the English language ...

 

At least it gave me the much needed nudge to revise, amend, and update my article, and I finished it today. I sent it to a good friend for proofreading, and will submit it to the NMB shortly. I hope that the endless shame of not being 100% usable in the court of my peers will finally be lifted from me, although wicked tongues might point out that you get what you pay for ... 

[Bugyotsuji]

If it helps, the meaning to me as a native speaker was perfectly clear. No need to feel any embarrassment.  Things can always be made clearer, and yet clearer of course. 

[Brian]

I think you are the only one on the side of the prosecution here Guido. The rest of us are firmly on the side of the defense
We appreciate what you do for the community. Think the meaning was fairly clear.

[Freddie]

6 hours ago, Brian said:

Translation of what exactly? The torokusho lists the size of your sword, what it is (wakizashi, katana etc) and what the signature (if any) reads. The rest of it is just legal license stuff....registration of the sword. All swords have to be registered in Japan. Nothing on that document that a ruler and your eyes can't tell you.

2 hours ago, Guido said:

 

"They" is probably me in this case - it sounds very much like something I wrote 12 or so years ago, and later changed to >regardless of whether<. Well, that's what you get when a non-native speaker like me butchers the English language ...

 

At least it gave me the much needed nudge to revise, amend, and update my article, and I finished it today. I sent it to a good friend for proofreading, and will submit it to the NMB shortly. I hope that the endless shame of not being 100% usable in the court of my peers will finally be lifted from me, although wicked tongues might point out that you get what you pay for ... 

I’m just glad to be able to contribute with my lack in the subject :-)

 

So is your view that the sword certificate always include a section about the Shoshin/gimei or not?

[Freddie]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

I think you are the only one on the side of the prosecution here Guido. The rest of us are firmly on the side of the defense
We appreciate what you do for the community. Think the meaning was fairly clear.

I Agree... 

[Freddie]

2 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

If it helps, the meaning to me as a native speaker was perfectly clear. No need to feel any embarrassment.  Things can always be made clearer, and yet clearer of course. 

Perfectly clear? Nja can not agree with you there. But agree that things can always be made clearer.

 

Thx for your input.

 

 

[Freddie]

7 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Freddie, are you wanting a) the correct translation of your registration certificate, or b) the correct translation of the webpage you linked above?

 

As to your question: 

Question: Does this mean that if I have a Torokusho for my blade saying Shoshin, does that mean that the signature, the sword or both is authentic?

 

Answer 1: The Torokusho will not say Shoshin (or Gimei either) so no need to worry about that.

 

Answer 2: If you are asking about any authenticity paperwork from an evaluation service, (not the Torokusho Registration card) Shoshin will mean that they recognize the signature as genuine and fitting with the work. *Gimei on the other hand will mean that the signature is suspect or plain wrong, regardless of the quality of the blade. 

 

Thx for your answer,

1. Well first of all I like to know if the sword license always include a section regarding Shoshin/Gimei or not. Since you say no and the article say yes.  :-)

 

2. On your second answer you where crystal clear so I’m satisfied with that answer.

 

Thank you for take your time...

[Freddie]

6 hours ago, Brian said:

Translation of what exactly? The torokusho lists the size of your sword, what it is (wakizashi, katana etc) and what the signature (if any) reads. The rest of it is just legal license stuff....registration of the sword. All swords have to be registered in Japan. Nothing on that document that a ruler and your eyes can't tell you.

Thx for leaving your input.

 

I would love to get a clear answer on the question if a sword license includes a section regarding Shoshin/Gimei or nor.

 

[Brian]

Freddie, this has been explained MULTIPLE times. The license has NOTHING to do with whether it is shoshin or not. Zero, zilch, nada.
Again, you are reading that document wrong.
You must read it as "....only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are stated, nevermind whether it's authentic (Shoshin) or false (Gimei) the document just states what is on the sword.
You are reading the reply above from the guy who wrote that article.

[Shugyosha]

4 hours ago, Guido said:

 

"They" is probably me in this case - it sounds very much like something I wrote 12 or so years ago, and later changed to >regardless of whether<. Well, that's what you get when a non-native speaker like me butchers the English language ...

 

At least it gave me the much needed nudge to revise, amend, and update my article, and I finished it today. I sent it to a good friend for proofreading, and will submit it to the NMB shortly. I hope that the endless shame of not being 100% usable in the court of my peers will finally be lifted from me, although wicked tongues might point out that you get what you pay for ... 

Guido,

If you’d written it in flashing neon letters 10ft high there would still be people wanting to believe the opposite of what you’d said. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Freddie, I think you are curious about the Japanese registration card (Tōrokusho), right?

 

I can attach a photograph of one here, and translate all the sections into English, if you like. 
If you will believe me, though, and save me some work and time, then here is what the card says.

*The top half is for swords.

From the right,

Box 1 says 種別 Shubetsu = type. (E.G. Tantō)

Box 2 長さ Nagasa = length

Box 3 反り Sori = depth of curvature

Box 4 目釘穴 Mekugi-ana = No. of tang holes

Box 5 銘文 Meibun = written characters, (meaning signature, date etc. on tang)

Box 6 備考　Bikō = Comments

Apart from the description of the blade, you can see a number given to the blade which is recorded by the regional Education Committee.

Finally there is a place & date of registration. 

Thus the blade is recorded.

 

Now. Further option.

If you wish to have the blade authenticated, then you are free to choose an organization to look at your blade and make a judgement. Such panels of ‘experts’ usually charge money for a) their opinion and b) any fancy folding certificate and envelope that they might issue. At this point they should tell you with luck that the blade is Shōshin (what it purports to be) or they might decide that it is Gimei. Increasingly though, we find them unable to make up their mind, so a third answer of Horyu (held, undecided) is handed down and no money is charged. (NBTHK anyway)

[Freddie]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

Freddie, this has been explained MULTIPLE times. The license has NOTHING to do with whether it is shoshin or not. Zero, zilch, nada.
Again, you are reading that document wrong.
You must read it as "....only the length, Sori, number of Mekugi-ana and the Mei (name inscribed) are stated, nevermind whether it's authentic (Shoshin) or false (Gimei) the document just states what is on the sword.
You are reading the reply above from the guy who wrote that article.

I know that.

 

That is not what I’m asking. I’m asking a yes or no question. :-)

Do the sword license include a mandatory section that refers to Shoshin or Gimei?

 

The article say yes it does but others in the forum say no. So, I just like to get a straight answer about that. As I see it now with the help of all super kind and patient people here. There  is no such part of the license.

 

”Mei (name inscribed) are stated, whether it's authentic (Shoshin 正真) or false (Gimei 偽銘)”

 

[Freddie]

1 hour ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Freddie, I think you are curious about the Japanese registration card (Tōrokusho), right?

 

I can attach a photograph of one here, and translate all the sections into English, if you like. 
If you will believe me, though, and save me some work and time, then here is what the card says.

*The top half is for swords.

From the right,

Box 1 says 種別 Shubetsu = type. (E.G. Tantō)

Box 2 長さ Nagasa = length

Box 3 反り Sori = depth of curvature

Box 4 目釘穴 Mekugi-ana = No. of tang holes

Box 5 銘文 Meibun = written characters, (meaning signature, date etc. on tang)

Box 6 備考　Bikō = Comments

Apart from the description of the blade, you can see a number given to the blade which is recorded by the regional Education Committee.

Finally there is a place & date of registration. 

Thus the blade is recorded.

 

Now. Further option.

If you wish to have the blade authenticated, then you are free to choose an organization to look at your blade and make a judgement. Such panels of ‘experts’ usually charge money for a) their opinion and b) any fancy folding certificate and envelope that they might issue. At this point they should tell you with luck that the blade is Shōshin (what it purports to be) or they might decide that it is Gimei. Increasingly though, we find them unable to make up their mind, so a third answer of Horyu (held, undecided) is handed down and no money is charged. (NBTHK anyway)

Wow, you are unbelievable when it come your  generosity man! This forum is asum. I remember being part of a wrist watch form were everybody was masters of everything and thought the knew it all. Nobody dears the even ask the most simple questions.

 

So thank you all...

[b.hennick]

NO

[Freddie]

Just now, b.hennick said:

NO

Thx, lol

[Brian]

The article doesn't say yes. That's the part we are trying to explain. You are reading it wrong. The article does not say that. No-where has it ever stated that the torokusho has anything to do with shoshin or gimei whatsoever.

[Freddie]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

The article doesn't say yes. That's the part we are trying to explain. You are reading it wrong. The article does not say that. No-where has it ever stated that the torokusho has anything to do with shoshin or gimei whatsoever.

👍

[Wolfmanreid]

Forgive me if this is outside the realm of this thread, but what about the following circumstance: Osafune Kanemitsu (or whoever) forges a sword but doesn’t sign it.  Later, maybe even centuries later, some other individual, perhaps even a smith of the same lineage or school, inscribes Osafune Kanemitsu’s mei to the nakago. I suppose then that this sword is technically gimei, even though the mei is the name of the smith who forged it. Is removing the mei the appropriate answer?  How would this hypothetical blade be treated if submitted to shinsa?  I have read this exact situation was not uncommon particularly in the late Edo period when Daimyo were selling some

of their clan treasures. 

 

[paulb]

It would be classed as gimei if the mei was removed it would then paper as a mumei blade by the original Smith. Seen a juyo example a blade signed kuniyasu (awataguchi) when mei was removed it papered to Awataguchi

 

[Brian]

Has happened before. Gimei..mei removal, papers to the same person. But NBTHK's comment is, if the signature is false, it is false. Like you signing Picasso's name on one of his paintings. It is still by him, but the fake signature needs to be removed.

[Ed Harbulak]

There is an exception. I once had a sword that lost it's original mei when the blade was shortened. The swordsmith who shortened the blade signed his own name as the person who shortened the blade along with a comment that the sword was shortened to "meet with preference" or words to that effect and on the other side of the nakago he wrote the name of the smith who originally made and signed the blade. The blade passed shinsa without a problem as the work of the original smith. 

[Jacques D.]

Koryu Kagemitsu utsushi by Munetsugu is an official shoshin gimei.