Bad rust

[Daniel-San]

This is my first post here and I am not sure this is the right place, feel free to move it if needed. I was hopeing to get some advice regarding an Edo (1693) sword, it is just the bare blade and it is terribly rusted. I have attached a link to detailed pics of the blade. I realize that it's hard to gauge from just pictures and a polisher would need to see if it was truely salvadgeable or not. But I would appreciate the forums experienced input on whether it may be something worth undertaking.

 

http://proxy.f3.ymdb.yahoofs.jp/users/44443c71_11c8d/bc/63f2/__hr_/4b11.jpg?BCvd0vJBXwkHGmzY

 

Many thanks in advance,

Dan Smiddy

[paulb]

Dan,

you are right it is hard to tell from photos and you really need to show it to a polisher.

First impression is that the form looks fairly sound with no obvious chips cracks or deep pitting. The red rust is likely to be still active and doing harm to the remainder of the blade so needs to be neutralised (others can tell you better than me how to do that)

Althougth it looks pretty rough I have seen worse cases come up well. It is worth showing to someone who knows what they are doing to get a better assesment.

regards

Paul

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Dan,

Sword is signed, "Omi Daijo Fujiwara Yukimitsu". If the signature is good it dates from the late 17th century.

My guess is that this will polish up nicely; the rust looks to be sitting on the surface without much pitting. It needs to be shown to a qualified polisher; the sooner the better.

Grey

[Daniel-San]

Thank you so much for the help, it has been a great asset. I am new to the nihonto world but have studied Japanese sword arts for a couple of years now.

 

I appreciate the information that has been provided here. In being new I know there are scams out there so it makes sense to be cautious and you have put me more at ease.

 

Best regards,

Dan

[reinhard]

Rust on forged steel is quite difficult to interprete. I've seen blades with tiny spots like freckles, which turned out to be rotten to the core and others with a thick, ugly layer, but turned out to be still healthy. Illustrating what I mean, I would like to show you an example from Royal Ontario Museum, taken by Mr.David Pepper.

 

reinhard

[Guest nickn]

mike is not silly if he thought the blade could be saved he would not be selling it as is

[Daniel-San]

mike is not silly if he thought the blade could be saved he would not be selling it as is

 

I did not think of it in that way, the ebay seller has sold and is selling many other swords. It would make sense that if some work could increase the value alot the seller would do it.

 

Perhaps this isn't the bargain I was hoping it was, the "as is" selling feature was one of my biggest hesitations.

 

Dan

[loiner1965]

if you decide not to polish it and to throw away then i love to have it and restore it if the price is right.....i hate seeing swords in this condition ,

[slavia631]

mike is not silly if he thought the blade could be saved he would not be selling it as is

 

I did not think of it in that way, the ebay seller has sold and is selling many other swords. It would make sense that if some work could increase the value alot the seller would do it.

 

Perhaps this isn't the bargain I was hoping it was, the "as is" selling feature was one of my biggest hesitations.

 

Dan

 

Then again, for a high-volume dealer like that sometimes it's more trouble than it is worth to look into possibly restoring. But an enthusiast such as yourself can dedicate the extra time and effort to checking out your one single piece, so I would encourage it.

 

Some 'project blades' that you get from sellers such as mike are definite 'throw-aways' to be used for polishing practice or to be collected by less serious enthusiasts who just want "a piece of history". Others are 'toss-ups' that the dealer doesn't feel inclined to get restored himself, but sells as-is hoping that a buyer may see some potential in it and thus possibly bid a higher price. I believe the latter is what you may have.

 

Send it to a polisher and see what he says. It couldn't hurt!

[Stephen]

Buying a rusty blade is a crap shoot, see link for what turned up after foundation polish. This was bought on ebay for five hundred, add in shipping shirasaya and habaki its not fun when it goes bad.

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/SC.html

[nagamaki - Franco]

If Stephen's warning of " its not fun when it goes bad " wasn't enough, consider that unless a fully qualified polisher is wisely chosen to properly deal with the foundation issues facing a rusty sword, the owner runs the risk of getting back a good sword with a mediocre polish after all the significant expense as well. It's never easy.

 

but, at the same time it can turn out to be rewarding when all the right choices and decisions are made.

[Brian]

Stephen,

Ouch. Does that one go way back or more recent?

Odd that they chose to make the habaki and shirasaya before the polishing was done?

 

Brian

[Stephen]

Im the go to guy, as a member here can not have swords shipped to him, I also thought it odd that they had to be done first, we'll know now that on such a undertaking polish first rest later.

[pcfarrar]

If the sword was a bare blade it requires a habaki and shirasaya before the polisher will accept it. Just the way it works with Usagiya.

[Guest nickn]

1 have sent bare blades to Japan for polish .i believe after the foundation/straightening polish a shira saya and habaki is made then the polish is finished??

[pcfarrar]

Yes they do the foundation first then shirasaya/habaki. But they won't go any further than foundation without a koshirae or shirasaya. I can't speak for other polishers/agents as I've mostly used Usagiya.

[Guest nickn]

who ever i get to polish a sword sorts out the habaki and shira saya it would not make sense to have those made before the foundation polish???

[Guido]

i believe after the foundation/straightening polish a shira saya and habaki is made then the polish is finished??

That's exactly how it works. It makes no sense to have a Shirasaya and/or Habaki done before that since it can (and probably will) result in a loose fit for both - especially if the Machi have to be redone.

[nagamaki - Franco]

1 have sent bare blades to Japan for polish .i believe after the foundation/straightening polish a shira saya and habaki is made then the polish is finished??

 

Habaki precedes shirasaya.

 

It's quite possible for hagire not to be discovered during the foundation portion of the polish and still show up in the later stages of the polish, big ouch!

[Brian]

Well, since the hagire were only found at the koma-nagura stage (after foundation polishing) it looks like they were correct in doing the foundation polish and then doing the habaki and shira-saya. At this stage is when shirasaya and habaki is usually done. Maybe one stone before or after, but by that time the shaping is done and dimensions shouldn't change.

 

Brian

[Ted Tenold]

Well, since the hagire were only found at the koma-nagura stage (after foundation polishing) it looks like they were correct in doing the foundation polish and then doing the habaki and shira-saya. At this stage is when shirasaya and habaki is usually done. Maybe one stone before or after, but by that time the shaping is done and dimensions shouldn't change.

 

Brian

 

Technically speaking every stone from Arato to Uchigumori is the foundation or "Shitaji-togi" (Lower polish), while everything after it is Shiage-togi (Upper polish). Habaki and shirasaya makers each have their own preference, but crafting either one on an already polished blade is not very popular with either. The habaki and shirasaya can be made after Kaiseido before progressing into the nagura stones. The shape is set, and any scratches that might be induced by the process of making the habaki or shirasaya won't be of any great consequence. The pattern left by the kaisei can make it more difficult to see hagire if present, so proceeding to nagura is a little more advantageous as the scratches induced are (generally) longitudinal on the blade, but hagire can appear at any stage through uchigumori. Just one of the risks that must be accepted unfortunately. A thorough inspection with a scope or magnifier is a good preventative measure as well, but still no gaurantee.