TOTAL N00B gets BURNED on OVERPRICED FAKE SWORD

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

Well, I damn sure hope that title doesn't apply to me, but I rolled the dice and took my chances!

I've admired and sort of passively studied nihonto for many years, and as an antiques guy (past-time dealer) I've had some war-era swords pass through my hands, as well as a lower-end but old wakisashi. This is the first time I've sought out a blade, and bought it for (what I hope was) its proper characteristics. I paid $950 with shipping. 

So here it is. Please let me know what I've got. 

The blade is 26.5" long from ha-machi to kissaki.

Mumei nakago. Pitted, with a thin, hard, charcoal-colored patina. 

The haman is a billowy shape - because of the reflective surface and lighting, my photos can't quite capture it. 

I can't find any marks or defects in the blade. No forging weaknesses or mechanical damage (to my untrained eye, anyway). A couple of tiny pinhead rust pits to the spine.

The saya is a little easier for me to judge; the leather combat cover is clearly quite old, with a typical dryness, stiffness and mild mustiness that comes with age. I assume it is WWII period, fitted over an older saya. All that fits perfectly to the blade. 

Give it to me straight. Fingers crossed.

 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

[vajo]

Puhhh....

Someone did a good job to remove the patina from the nakago. I'm not sure with this. From your pictures it looks like oil hardnend at a first look. The hamon looks a little strange. 

 

 

 

 

I reduced gamma from your picture and my best guess is shin-shinto or a showa-to. But i didn't see a hada. 

 

Did you have only the blade without habaki and koshirae? That was a really good deal for the seller in my opinion. But maybe others know more and make a better judge.

 

You should take pictures in a better light, to catch details of hamon and hada.

 

For the nakago, hold the blade on the nakago with bare hands. Over the years the patina will come back. But it will never be a old one.

 

 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

Trying to get a better picture of the edge, but none of my pics are turning out very well. I'm also not seeing a hada, but my eyes are crap for fine detail anymore. 

The blade has a habaki and saya. No tsuka or tsuba, etc. 

 Well, like I said. It was a dice roll. Hopefully I'm not too bad off. 

 

[vajo]

Making pictures is never easy Craig. Don't worry. If you play in the sunlight with angle of the camera and sword you will find out more. Sorry that i cant help you further with your sword. I'm sure the more experienced collectors here can help you to find out more.

[Hoshi]

You did get burned.

 

The Nakago is artificially aged, those pitting marks are in fact hammer punch marks to make it appear pitted. The blade looks gendai. It's been dressed up to make it look old and attract the treasure bargain hunter. 

 

For 950$ you could have done much better looking for sales on the board. The seller did well here. 

 

 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

Well, that possibility was in my mind, hence the title. 
 

So how bad did I get beat up? 
 

Also, if I wanted to put it back in gendai mounts, how would I do that, and how much good money would I have to chase after bad?

[PxN13]

  On 2/16/2021 at 9:36 PM, Professor Zhirinovsky said:

Well, that possibility was in my mind, hence the title. 
 

So how bad did I get beat up? 
 

Also, if I wanted to put it back in gendai mounts, how would I do that, and how much good money would I have to chase after bad?

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I'm on the burn side as well... The problem would with mounting would be finding a habaki that fits (which I believe is extremely rare) or having one made to the spec of the blade which is somewhat costly.... Not sure if you do want to mount it since you're unlikely to recoup the costs of even the mount itself (even a basic non Japanese mount + habaki would be around $1k in my experience) . Could be worth mounting if you want to get into iaido. 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

It has the habaki. You can see it in the picture of the saya, to the lower right. 

Where I'm at with it is that if it is at least a gunto blade, I can put it in a period-correct gunto tsuka/tsuba, and have a gunto sword. It may not be what I'd hoped for, but such swords do at least have a place in history. 



 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

  On 2/16/2021 at 9:21 PM, Valric said:

 

The Nakago is artificially aged, those pitting marks are in fact hammer punch marks to make it appear pitted.

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Examining it closely with a magnifying glass, under both sunlight and artificial light, I don't believe this to be the case. 

What appear to have happened is that a rusted, pitted surface has been worn down with some abrasive...my guess would be an aggressive application of sandpaper. 

Followed by...dare I say it? A nice coat of Naval Jelly.

I believe this treatment has given areas a flattened surface punctuated by isolated "dimples", wearing the top portion of the pits level and giving them an individual "punched" appearance. Other areas, where our handyman hero missed, the entire surface of that area is still pretty rough and looks like you would expect of an old piece of iron that has corroded. 

[vajo]

Dont get annoyed Craig. As i said take your blade on the nakago in bare hands. The patina will come back over the years. If you have the habaki, look for some Gunto parts to complete it. 

You find all the missing parts in the net. Good luck.

 

WW2 Tsuba Open-Work Gunto Katana WW2 Japanese Army Sword Mounting Parts Brass | eBay

For Parts WW2 Japanese Army Gunto Fuchi Kuchigane Seppa Military Sword Fittings | eBay

 

The only difficult thing is to find a tsuka that fits to your sword.

 

[Dave R]

 " I've had some war-era swords pass through my hands, as well as a lower-end but old wakisashi.".... I hope you don't mean that literally, because that hurts a lot and the blood get everywhere.

 

I would say it's a Buke-Zukuri Showato taken to war, that got over-cleaned, and probably acid "polished". Regarding a new Tsuka, look for one minus the Ito, then you can dump it in the bath for a few hours to dissolve the rice glue and re cut the inside to fit your blade. Then proceed to refit and and rebind. 

 

 

 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

  On 2/17/2021 at 1:08 PM, Dave R said:

 " I've had some war-era swords pass through my hands, as well as a lower-end but old wakisashi.".... I hope you don't mean that literally, because that hurts a lot and the blood get everywhere.

 

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You would think I'd have learned the first time, but here we are yet again. 

Thanks for the great suggestion on recycling an old gunto tsuka core. I'm going back and forth on what direction to go, between full gunto, and early 20th C. civilian mounts. Those flowery gunto tsuba and kashira, while appropriate for their time and purpose, aren't really my style. And if this is likely a pre-war Showa blade (as I'm guessing from the lack of seki stamp), that gives me a few more options to choose from.

[vajo]

You have free hands in all directions.

Look at ohmura study for more infos.

[ChrisW]

Perhaps look at Gunzoku-style gunto mounts, less flowery but still military-esque.

[Ed Harbulak]

Many WWII era swords, especially older blades, are often found with non-military tsuba. Find an old tsuba you like and mount it on the blade if you don't like the military style tsuba. Then you can say it's an old blade that went to war with its original tsuba. If you put  the blade into 20th century civilian mounts, it will be neither military or period. It's your choice,  but there are many options. The least expensive way would be to rebuild the wooden Tsuka as Dave suggested and use a tsuba of your choice.

[Bruce Pennington]

In fact, the leather-bound civil saya says that this was a civil sword re-fitted for the war, which quite often kept the civil fittings from the habaki up.  The civil tsuka have a mix of military parts in varying degrees, but sometimes have no military at all.  So, you have quite a wide latitude to re-fit this one.

[Dave R]

 I have pics of war era Showato and Gunto swords with all sorts of tsuba, plain iron ones being quite common, sometimes the complete mount is otherwise regulation but for the tsuba. I have a theory that an officer who expected real combat would often fit an iron or steel tsuba, to cut down on glitter, and better protect the hand. A good blade will cut through brass guards.

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

Thanks again for the thought food, guys. The more I think about it, the more I lean toward the civilian mounts. I just received a simple and (I hope) suitable iron tsuba with a pattern on it (fogged-in mountains? I dunno for sure what it represents) that nicely matches the hamon that I'm very pleased with.

Speaking of which, I busted the camera out again, and this is the best I could do for blade images. It still makes the hamon look more flat and solid than it actually is, but under this particular low, incandescent light, with little reflection, it is at least possible to see a long stretch of it in a photo.

Viewed outside and under magnification, the hamon has a multi-layered, cloudy, at points almost grainular testure, with a light frosty halo-effect at certain points. I don't know if that is enough to tell if it is water or oil-quenched. 

I'm relieved to say it does have a masame hada. My eyes are terrible nowadays, so I haven't been able to get a glimpse of it until today. Evidently I'm only able to see it under magnification, outside and on a cloudy day. Otherwise it gets drowned-out in glare and reflection. 

 

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

Hada images...assuming this wood-grain element is hada. I had to photograph it through a magnifying glass.

I've got a couple of questions. I've tried to research for definitive answers, but to no avail.

So, can someone clue me in to how we can identify this as Showato? And how to tell if a blade is traditional vs. non-traditional?

These past years I've been able to ID Gunto blades easily enough by the presence of arsenal and seki stamps, and the fresher appearance of the nakago.

But a thing like this that to my untrained eye says made in a typical shape, with a typical hada, and I think a typical hamon (I still can't figure out how to tell water from oil -- is it a matter of nie? Hamon form and details?), and with a mumei nakago in this condition (albeit in this case, altered by improper cleaning), what is the point(s) being examined that suggests this time period and not that?  What thing can I point at here and say "this means 20th C."?


 

[raaay]

hi Craig

 

the photos are not good , but the grain pattern you are   looking for " Masame Hada " looks more like scratches from an abrasive clean  on the surface to me , i hope i am wrong !

 

sorry just my two pence worth ,  but it may be the magnification that is causing it to look like that ?

Edited February 19, 2021 by raaay
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[Lingonberry]

Masame hada, from what I've seen, tends to be more wavy than straight and in my opinion looks a bit like wood grain sometimes. The hada also wouldn't be too hard to see, either, and unless the sword is supremely well made you would also be seeing a fair amount of "kitae ware" with masame hada.  The Hosho (保昌) were famous for doing masame hada with no kitae ware and their swords are pretty tough to find... and expensive!

 

I suspect your sword has "muji hada" (no hada) which is pretty common for WW2 era swords, and I think the straight lines you're seeing are scratches or abrasion.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm still a novice and by no means an expert.

[Professor Zhirinovsky]

Yeah, I think you guys are right. It looked a bit like hada under the light, but in the pics they look much more 3 dimensional. Must be some sort of long abrasions.