Real or Fake?

[Karusk]

To the topic:he has absolutely let this up for auction three separate times. I have won it twice at 550 dollars. He has not honored the auction both times and its up AGAIN. Its fake. It would cost me about 400-500 bucks or maybe less depending on the steel I chose/folding/hamon.

@DoTanuki yokai

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Style-Hiradukuri-Sword-17/174685425739?hash=item28ac10104b:g:Q3UAAOSwRihgKyuT

 

im not crazy!🤪🥳

Edited March 18, 2021 by Karusk
Found link to item.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Ok i check the sellers listings and don’t see it up again can you show me in a link maybe ? 

Ok i don’t know why but I can’t find it without your link, so this could be a bug on eBay ? You asked the seller what is going on ? 

this is a video showing a tamahagane blade. 
Not compared to L6. But what is steel ? And what is good steel ?  
Tamahagane has less impurities than any other steel in the world because of the traditional process. L6 bainit has sulfur for example what is just impurity with no benefit.  And ofc many high carbon steels can be tempered to be a spring steel but will lose more hardness for flexibility . 
How good a blade will be depends more on the smith then the steel. 
The reason why Japanese blades are so desired is not that they make crap steel into something useful, it’s the artistic value. 
And also old European blades had differential hardening in some cases even if not visible while they are not polished like Japanese. Also your L6 Blade is differential hardened, what is the reason for that if it was just invented for bad steel ? 

[Jacques D.]

2 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

 

. But what is steel ? And what is good steel ?  
Tamahagane has less impurities than any other steel in the world because of the traditional process. 

 

 

Hum.. 

 

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3788/64685ec4e78c9d63973ce0cc916f44152aa0.pdf?_ga=2.201074286.1307484759.1616071515-1827659494.1616071515

[Karusk]

All swords need to be tempered. Plus aesthetics. That  choji hamon cost me an extra 100 bucks. Suguha would have been cheaper. I could have spent more for a more flamboyant one but I didn’t want to break the bank. The L6 is actually very difficult to work with and any fancier hamon he would have had to make the blade several times to get it right. It would have cost me 1700.  He politely asked me not to make him do it as well when we were hammering out the details of the blade. When your buying from a Japanese smith your paying a huge amount for the Japanese laws regarding sword making. They can make three a month I thought it was less. They also have to do an unpaid apprenticeship. They also cannot use any modern methods or metals.  Your paying for this extra hard work that is unnecessary with modern metals and equipment. 
 

About this video they are destroying nihonto katanas there my friend. Go look up someone doing this to modern 1060 or higher. 
 

I am speaking from personal experience. I have destroyed a modern nihonto in a stress test versus this katana. Thats right i said it i destroyed a modern nihonto. Hate me if you must. This L6 toolsteel took everything i threw at it and is perfect and healthy. 
 
Europeans did not develop differential hardening anywhere near the same way Japanese smiths did.  They used hot tongs and interrupted quenching to achieve the desired flexibility and edge retention. They quench the blade and reheat the spine and quench it again. Japanese swords developed the more advanced hamon to give it a softer spine and harder edge. Thus making their design more flexible than they would have been able to achieve with the process and difficulty involved in separating  higher and lower carbon iron. The whole process of making tamahagane is to add carbon to the extremely low carbon iron sand from rivers.  As opposed to already high carbon iron mined out if the ground. Once the higher and lower carbon steels are folded the hamons purpose is to make the edge harder and better edge retentive while leaving the spine softer. You just dont need to do all this folding when starting with higher carbon steels. You do still need to temper. 
 

All of this technology was driven by necessity. 

Tamahagane by its very nature has MORE impurities than modern steel. The whole reason for folding the steel is to remove the impurities! You literally do not have to fold modern steel unless you just want to make the blade more traditional looking or prettier. It costs a little more and is entirely unnecessary. I paid extra because i was making something pretty with a hitatsura hamon( the one i just ordered not this one i pictured. ) You cannot fold L6 i am told for any price, they just wont do it. 
 

The sulfur in l6 bainite is what makes L6 bainite. 

Plus a little magnesium i think. Its an alloy and everything in that alloy is supposed to be there. For that matter all steel is an iron/carbon alloy. 

And to agree with you on one thing YES you’re entirely paying for artistic value. What i am describing is the difference between a ferari and  an armored humvee.  Yeah the ferari is super nice, very expensive, pretty with all the bells and whistles. Its super exclusive and you need to get in the waiting list for a new one. Who doesnt want a ferari if they had the chance? If you slam the ferari into the armored humvee you’re going to need a new ferari and the armored humvee is gonna keep on trucking. All modern nihinto are works of art to be cherished and appreciated, but if you want something to abuse you definitely dont want to buy that ferari unless you just have that kind of money. 
 

Ive already been admonished about this conversation and I honestly appreciate the fact that youre even listening to me and having this discussion. Please dont take me as being rude or derisive. You asked so Im trying to explain my point. Im not buying a crap fake like the ones you see here from time to time made to cheat  someone, and thats the only reason i felt the need to say what I did that started this whole conversation between us. 
 

It is just a plain cold fact that modern steel and technology can produce a more durable sword than traditional nihonto smithing methods. If you have a problem understanding this i dont know how to better explain what is a simple truth. Your gonna have to buy a high quality modern sword and find out for yourself. 

 

 

@DoTanuki yokai

To disagree with this is to disagree with SCIENCE. 

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Actually I was only relating to the modern nbthk tmahagane but forgot to say in my 2nd post. 
 

As far as I know, the process of creating bainite on the spine of a L6 blade is lowering the edge hardness without exceptions.  My conclusion is that the nihonto will still holds the Edge better. 
It’s not possible to create a steel that is more shock resistent and better holding the edge while more flexibility.
 

And iron with carbon is steel. They don’t found steel in Europe as ore or anything. Also the process of folding the steel with tamahagane reduces the carbon content. 

[Karusk]

Sigh man your arguing with a scientific fact that i have tested myself. There is NOTHING about the traditional process of making a nihonto katana that can match the tolerance achieved with 1065 or higher carbon modern steel. And the carbon is still in the iron they are mining.  We’re talking the difference between an lump of iron ore you pull out of the ground and iron ore smelted from RIVER SAND. You’re arguing with the actual historical fact of the reason why Nihonto was developed, because of the poor quality and availability of the iron in Japan. Thats just history. 

[Karusk]

Seriously this is like arguing with a child who believes in santa claus. The things you are saying are myths. And categorically untrue. 

[Karusk]

54 minutes ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Also the process of folding the steel with tamahagane reduces the carbon content.

False. The carbon is what is making the steel. The higher the carbon the more flexible and durable the steel. Simple basic science.

 

@DoTanuki yokai

 

And your knowledge is non-existent. Go bend your nihonto katana and cry im done. You linked me a video of nihonto smiths destroying katanas as proof they will stand up to modern steel. I linked you a video of a  famous American smith explaining why youre naive and anothed video of high carbon steels being stress tested the same way as your nihonto and passing. At this point youre being willfully ignorant. 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Your knowledge sounds to me like western tv shows.

simple basic science and u got it all wrong.

[Jacques D.]

1 hour ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Your knowledge sounds to me like western tv shows.

simple basic science and u got it all wrong.

 

DNFTT

[AntiquarianCat]

3 hours ago, Karusk said:

Sigh man your arguing with a scientific fact that i have tested myself. There is NOTHING about the traditional process of making a nihonto katana that can match the tolerance achieved with 1065 or higher carbon modern steel. And the carbon is still in the iron they are mining.  We’re talking the difference between an lump of iron ore you pull out of the ground and iron ore smelted from RIVER SAND. You’re arguing with the actual historical fact of the reason why Nihonto was developed, because of the poor quality and availability of the iron in Japan. Thats just history. 

To be totally scientific my friend, there are several XRF studies published in good metallurgy journals that have looked at the Japanese sword. A good example would be https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264439179_Study_of_strength_and_toughness_in_Japanese_sword_produced_from_Tamahagane_steel_by_Tatara_process

 

What I found most surprising was that a downright archaic sword from the Koto period had remarkably high purity in its cutting edge, and oddly enough the few non carbon impurities were things like silicone which we now know to improve steel resilience. There are other studies finding similar results and honestly I’m impressed about what smiths 800 years ago could do. Yes I know,  there are a lot of people who claim the steel in nihonto is uniquely terrible and impure but from what the peer reviewed studies say: the evidence doesn’t support that claim. Also, the Japanese had heat treatment and hardness control down to a science whereas modern replica makers seem to struggle in that regard.

Edit: in case if people find it easier to look at a PDF, here you go.

yaso2011.pdf

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Karusk said:

..... And the carbon is still in the iron they are mining.....Post 36

..... The higher the carbon the more flexible and durable the steel. Simple basic science......Post 38

I did not really follow this thread, but when I read this nonsense I thought I should mention that all these things have been written down and can be re-read somewhere. Flexibility is not toughness, and durability is not hardness. And the hardness curve does not at all go up in a straight line in relation to the carbon content! 

What are you dicussing? And why?

[AntiquarianCat]

In regards to the original topic: what worries me is that I think I see a fair amount of Nie on that sword; I had been told that nie was only something you could get in a decent amount through water quenching, so if that is a fake, then counterfeiters have figured out how to add traits you would previously only see on real swords, which makes me think the low end market could soon be flooded with improved fakes. I bet the smith messed up the nioiguchi and that’s why the cosmetic hamon looks so odd but it’s probably just a matter of time before counterfeiters can make a decent hamon and have traits like nie.

[Tom Darling]

On 2/16/2021 at 9:44 AM, b.hennick said:

I never look at the Daimyo54's offerings. I got burned twice. I have ignored his stuff for years. Good luck.

You can say that again!