The miniature wakizashi has also returned from polish.

[shan]

This is the tiny 25cm scaled down wakizashi in Miniature scaled down wakizashi mounts that I have.

Its not a boys day sword (confirmed by a BDS collector of some standing)and it is defiantly a wakizashi.

I do not know what it is, but as samurai were the only ones allowed to wear a daisho, it opens some difficult questions.

Please let me have your views on the Blade and activity and again perhaps a rough date and school.

Regards

Shan

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

looks nice any chance to do a side by side of someting so we can get a feeling for scale?

[Brian]

Is 25cm the cutting edge, or the whole blade from kissaki to nakago jiri?

I can only think it must have been some sort of presentation piece or dedication or maybe just a sample of work in miniature?

 

Brian

[shan]

Hi GuysBrian,Stephen ,i can supply an image of it next to a wakizashi for scale ,i will use one of similar shape.

I will post it here tomorrow.

Brian,I also think it was a miniature of some sort like an example of workmanship or presentation piece.

Its an odd beast for sure but nicely done,but i will try to restore the Edo period mounts as well.

Problem is everything was scaled down and the Kashira was missing so i am going to find it Difficult to replace,but all else is there.

The nagasa is 25cm sorry.

any idea of school or period?

Many thanks

shan

[shan]

Here is a quick comparison against a 52cm Wakizashi.

and a comparison against a tanto/small waki Fuchi.

regards

shan

 

 

 

[John A Stuart]

Why wouldn't you just consider this as a shinogizukuri tanto? John

[Brian]

John,

I think you would.

However by the dimensions it is obviously intended as a miniature, and isn't the front end of anything larger. By name a shinogi zukuri tanto, but by scale and look, I would agree it is intended to depict a scaled down waki. I would have called it a boy's sword on first glance, but if an expert says not...

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

I do not know what it is, but as samurai were the only ones allowed to wear a daisho, it opens some difficult questions.

Regards

Shan

 

When it comes to nihonto assuming (as entertaining as it might be), is a risky exercise at best. So, what makes you assume the possibility of this ko wakizashi being part of a daisho? Evidence, speculation?

As the merchant class were allowed to carry wakizashi wouldn't that be a strong possibility?

 

Please let me have your views on the Blade and activity and again perhaps a rough date and school.

Regards

Shan

 

Flame like togari ba generally points to Bungo, perhaps mid to late Edo. What was the polisher's kantei?

[Stephen]

read somewhere...dont ask....it may have been a salesmans sample, heard of them in differant sizes. just a thought.

[shan]

Franco stated "When it comes to nihonto assuming (as entertaining as it might be), is a risky exercise at best. So, what makes you assume the possibility of this ko wakizashi being part of a daisho? Evidence, speculation?

As the merchant class were allowed to carry wakizashi wouldn't that be a strong possibility? "

 

Hi Franco,

the merchant class appeared to try to get as close to the limit of size as they legally could,this is far too small to even consider as a slashing weapon.

If the merchant was a 3ft dwarf then you could be right. :?

I do not believe its a tanto, Kenji mishina thought it a BoysDaySword or miniature blade for a doll.

The large BDS collector who is writing a book on BDS,thought it definatly not and possibly a wakizashi for a person of considerably small stature.

Everything about this item dictates "Miniature" from the Fuchi to the saya and blade and even the tsuka and menuki.

I originally thought BDS but have been told it does not conform to a BDS as they were not Wakizashi.

A sample blade is a possibilty i suppose , but having not heard of one I cannot be sure they existed.(at least mounted samples anyway)

 

Sure John,it may be a Tanto (not an ideal shape for a stabbing weapon, but possible) but i think not.

When the mounts are restored i will show it to you in its mini mounts to judge.

If you held it in your hands you would then understand. Its an oddball item.

However whatever it is a lot of time , effort and cost went into producing it.

Stephen and brian, it may be that you are the closest here in that it may have been presented to either a person or a clan as a sample of workmanship,but why a smaller version ,would be the next question.

I like the ideas as they help to logically rule out the improbable and narrow it down.

I feel we may never know why it was made though.

many thanks

shan.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Kenji mishina thought it a BoysDaySword or miniature blade for a doll.

The large BDS collector who is writing a book on BDS,thought it definatly not and possibly a wakizashi for a person of considerably small stature.

 

Considering how small should have been the owner, supposedly adult if we rule out the BDS, I would rather believe Mishina

in the Doll's sword theory. A Bunraku puppet of extremely high quality might be another possibility IMHO.

[shan]

Good shot Carlo, but i have been told by the same source that he has never heard of a tempered Dolls sword and that the doll would have to be very large to fit the blade so

Its conflicting information all round really. :?

"A Bunraku puppet of extremely high quality might be another possibility IMHO."

I have never seen one ,but if a temperd blade was ever made for one, then yes,thats possible.

My original thoughts were that it was for a very young boy being presented to his lord and the court requirement being that he be armed, but his status being that it would not be with a katana.It would fit a 5 year old well.

Again its a stab in the dark.

regards

shan

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

My original thoughts were that it was for a very young boy being presented to his lord and the court requirement being that he be armed, but his status being that it would not be with a katana.It would fit a 5 year old well.

 

I've put custom made swords for kids in the same basket as the BDS and consequently ruled out by the words of

"the collector"...

[Markus]

I would rather believe Mishina

in the Doll's sword theory. A Bunraku puppet of extremely high quality might be another possibility IMHO.

 

I agree with Carlo (and of course Mr. Mishina), because Japan has a so rich repertoire on puppets

in each quality class, many of them carrying swords. Most of them are of course not real swords and

wooden or lacquer substitutes but It is very likely that there were some high quality dolls for the high

society (served as presents and so on) where no expenses were spared and so, a real blade was

commissioned too.

 

Just some thoughts from my side.

[shan]

Thankyou everyone for your opinions and guesses.

Having thought about it,It would be unfair of me to ask you for opinions and then to reject some of them "out of hand" like i have been.They are all Possibilities.

It is an enigma item and I guess we will never know what its maker originally intended (beyond the desire to make a mini copy of a wakizashi and then get mounts made for it).

It’s a True mini item and I think it’s quite nice because of that.

It will be going to a shinsa somewhere eventually, along with the Osoraku Tanto and 3 other swords of "merit".

Many thanks for all the suggestions they are all thought provoking.

Shan

[benkyoka]

Hi Franco,

the merchant class appeared to try to get as close to the limit of size as they legally could,this is far too small to even consider as a slashing weapon.

 

Really? You don't need a lot of length in order to slash someone.

[Mark Green]

My thoughts are, that this was a sword made for a Lady. Sharp enough to kill, yet small enough to be kept in your sleve. JMHO

Mark G

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi Mark.

 

Might be, but you wantn't a Tsuba in your sleeve or elsewhere if you're hiding a blade.

That's the reason for Aikuchi.

[Brian]

 

True. Frankly, any guesses are going to be just that. Perhaps at the next shinsa the panel will be kind enough to offer their ideas. School and period are also difficult, and at best are just guesses. Nothing like seeing it in hand.

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

 

....pun not intended... Oh well you of the Commonwealth can't blame a poor italic to be

a little funny when talking about ladies. Unless the Queen is involved of course.

 

... wait.... again no pun intended... :D

[John A Stuart]

We haven't seen it in it's mounts yet, have we? That may give some further talking points. John

[shan]

Hi John,

I have some images before the polish.

I will post them for now and try to take some more if needed.

The total length is 41cm from end to end of the mounts.

Tsuba is 49mm x 34mm outer measurements

Fuchi is 31mm x 20mm outer measurements ,3mm thick.

Kozuka is normal sized.

Blade is 4.5mm motokasane ,22mm motohaba and 25cm Nagasa.

Kissaki is 30mm to yokote.sakikasane is 4.2mm.

Tsuka is 9.5cm.

I hope this helps.

 

 

regards

shan

 

 

 

[John A Stuart]

Ah yes, I still see a tanto. I'm saying a hamadachi style o-tanto, the shinogizukuri blade is I think causing doubt. John

 

http://www.shadowofleaves.com/tanto_5.htm

 

http://www.shadowofleaves.com/tanto_2.htm

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

If it didn't get refurbished sometime during its life, the regular-sized Kodzuka rules out most if not all of the previous

suggestions.

[shan]

Hi John,Carlo and the Forum Posse,

Well i guess you have to hold it to understand and the size just does not translate well.

If it is, as sugested, not a mini wakizashi because the kozuka is not of a reduced size then thats OK.

I still think its a lovely little item and well thought out.(except for the Kozuka)

 

I have googled and only found one that is the same and it is classed as a Tanto.

Item number 11 (all rights reserved and copyrighted satcho.com,and whatever else i need to put)

 

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:r9 ... cd=1&gl=uk

 

This is in Tanto mounts, but i see they are very similar blades.

I wonder why the experts did not sugest it??? (i suppose you have to have it in hand)

I did look everywhere and the closest i got to size was around 14 inches or more,hence the confusion.

Many thanks for tilting me towards a more logical conclusion.

So now i have 2 unusual Tanto in my collection :D and 4 normal Hira Zukuri conforming Tanto.

I wonder now if it can be placed in a school or period.

do the mounts help as i think they are original (maybe,possibly)?

regards

shan

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I wonder why the experts did not sugest it???

 

1) experts don't care about these types of items so didn't enter the topic

2) because you didn't post the mounting until requested and because Shinogizukuri Tanto

are rare might be a good reply (IF we consider it is effectively a Tanto).

[Brian]

We're just debating semantics again.

It has a blade shorter than 30cm, so strictly speaking it is a tanto. It's really irrelevant what it is called though.

To me, there are elements of a miniature in it. Hold it in your hand and take a photo showing scale?

But either way, what it is called is not important. You can't always go according to the strict definitions of what things are and try and put everything into a neat little box. I said it before..but it is what it is.

Let's say I forge a miniature tachi blade to scale, that is 10 cm long nagasa. Strictly speaking, it isn't, it is tanto length. But I suspect that it is only us in the West obsessed with categorising things into neat little boxes.

You will never know what it was made for. Scaled down for a child or doll is still my guess, but that doesn't make it so. I have something similar, and will never see it as an odd tanto. Impractical at that length and sori to use as such. However it is all just guessing, so better to work on the other features and try and date it.

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Just to say that shinogi-zukuri tanto are scarce but exist. Sample on this page:

 

http://www.satcho.com/Nihonto/Nihonto.htm

[shan]

Yes i saw that one jacques,i mentioned it further up the page.

Its very like mine but in tanto/aikuchi mounts.

The rounded kojiri of my saya is traditional to wakizashi i am told.

Probably wrong mind you,almost everything else i have read is.