Looking for help getting more info on inheritance piece

[Hshsurf]

Hello, 

I'm looking for any information that can be offered on this sword I inherited from my grandfather. It has hung on his wall my whole life (I'm 44). Unfortunately he passed away without saying much about it and I was never allowed to touch it until he passed. As the story goes he found the sword in the attic of the house he and my grandmother bought when he came back from thre war (he was in the European Theater). The guy they bought the house from had fought in the Pacific. The Tsuba is missing obviously. I can find no discernable marks, stamps, signatures or writing of any kind on the sword. The handle appears to be silk wrapped over ray skin. The inside of the sheath is wood. Best i can tell from my limited research is that it is an officer's sword from WWII, possibly a type 94 or 95. Outside of that I really only have theories about the sword, it's history and it's given condition.  I'll attach photos. Please let me know if there are any other detailed photos that might help. Thanks in advance for any info you can provide. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi David

 

Yes, an authentic Type 98 Shin Gunto, the blade is an old one in pretty rough condition and the Nakago (tang) has been altered quite crudely. I suspect this may have been originally mounted in Kyu Gunto mountings which preceded the Type 94/98. This appears to be a mount of good quality, I can see a family crest on the Kabutogane (end of handle) and what appears to be a rare dust seal Seppa that provides extra protection to the Saya (sheath). If you could get some more photos of this it would be appreciated as they are fairly rare.

[Hshsurf]

Thank you! Here are some more detailed photos. How would I go about looking up the family Crest? 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Try this thread with pictures showing the Mon in more detail facing upwards:

 

 

[16k]

Can you take close ups of the blade itself? Tip, temper line, ...etc.

 

I have a feeling we may have something interesting here. It must have been a very long sword once (the tip of the tang shows the remain of what was possibly the first hole, so long sword, ō-kissaki... very interesting.

[vajo]

I'm away from PC and look on to the pictures from my smartphone.

 

For me it looks like someone stick a junk chinese Blade as tsunagi into a nice koshirae. 

 

Crude shape, terrible nakago.

 

But as i wrote i look here from the work with a smartphone....

[Brian]

I'm also dubious about the blade. Not the fittings. But that nakago is horrible. Even the shape. can we get a closer pic of the tip? Looks very angled.

[Bruce Pennington]

David,

I would really help to get clear, close-ups of the blade tip, and maybe one or two clear close-ups of sections of the blade, with any attempt to see the temper line (hamon).  Like the other guys say, this could be something really interesting or Chinese crap, nothing in between! 

 

Even if the blade turned out to be fakery, like John said, the fittings are special.  Haven't seen that family mon (crest) before and I can't say I've ever seen a dust-cover seppa on a Type 98 before.  Even so, it's rare.

 

Like to see those close-ups!

[vajo]

 

This is the shape. Look a the shinogi and the yokote. And take a look on the boshi. Ok the condition is bad, but this didn't fit to Japanese swords. The blade looks chinese made for me. 

The koshirae is authentic, no question. 

[Hshsurf]

Here's some close ups. It looks to my untrained eye like someone took a wire wheel to thre whole blade...

[16k]

I still believe it’s real but badly damaged. Boshi was massacred, so was nakago. What we’re seeing as a nakago here is actually part of the blade. Poor thing was butchered.

[Hshsurf]

Here are a couple other photos. Is there anything that I can or should do to help preserve our improve this piece? I would be interested in locating a tsuba to complete it for display. Thank you all for the help and information. 

[Brian]

IF it's real....and it's still 50/50...I would consider the blade as a tsunagi....something to hold together what are a nice set of mounts. But it is still a nice package, so look after it.

[dwmc]

David.

 

Too me, your sword appears to be severely shortened (o-suriage), as the very end of the nakago-jiri (tang) looks to have a partial mekugi ana (hole for mekugi pin). If this is the case, then the blade was (crudely) shortened by several inches, and has suffered most every other form of abuse as well. Depending on where you are in California, I would advise getting the sword to Jimmy Hayashi in San Francisco to take a look, possibly open a window. Harunaka Hoshino and others in the bay area could also provide an assessment.( Harunaka has a somewhat spurious reputation, but knows Japanese swords well)!  Mr. Hayashi would definitely be my first choice.

 

Your sword from the photo's shown, does not look particularly promising, however, you never know, and the suggestion mentioned above would be the least expensive and most definite way to find out. The Koshirae , as mentioned is higher grade, present sword could be a lower end replacement for original, but then...many possibilities!

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

 

Dave M.

 

 

 

[ChrisW]

Swords in worse condition have been brought back to life. I would say follow Dave's advice and get Mr. Hayashi to have a gander at it. Who knows? Its most likely not worth the effort, but let the togishi be the judge of that!

[vajo]

This boshi can never be reshaped. This is a dead sword. Not more than a tsunagi for the koshirae. As said before.

 

[Hshsurf]

1 hour ago, dwmc said:

David.

 

Too me, your sword appears to be severely shortened (o-suriage), as the very end of the nakago-jiri (tang) looks to have a partial mekugi ana (hole for mekugi pin). If this is the case, then the blade was (crudely) shortened by several inches, and has suffered most every other form of abuse as well. Depending on where you are in California, I would advise getting the sword to Jimmy Hayashi in San Francisco to take a look, possibly open a window. Harunaka Hoshino and others in the bay area could also provide an assessment.( Harunaka has a somewhat spurious reputation, but knows Japanese swords well)!  Mr. Hayashi would definitely be my first choice.

 

Your sword from the photo's shown, does not look particularly promising, however, you never know, and the suggestion mentioned above would be the least expensive and most definite way to find out. The Koshirae , as mentioned is higher grade, present sword could be a lower end replacement for original, but then...many possibilities!

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

 

Dave M.

 

 

 

Thank you Dave. I am having a hard time finding contact info for him. Any leads? I've found plenty of mention of him but no way to contact him. 

[dwmc]

2 hours ago, Hshsurf said:

Thank you Dave. I am having a hard time finding contact info for him. Any leads? I've found plenty of mention of him but no way to contact him. 

 

I'll pm you David.  I may still have his contact #. Mr. Hayashi is almost always at the San Francisco sword show as well as many other good sword information individuals.

Worth a visit if you can, normally in Aug., will probably return this year depending on Covid situation. Also a good place to match up an appropriate tsuba for your sword. No better way to match up replacement parts than "in hand." Also, no one is suggesting you have a blade worth several thousand dollars to polish, but only to economically take a look at what it may be or have been.

There are a few of us, if not many, whom try to realize, and appreciate historical/sentimental value in a Shin gunto, and not necessarily the value judged as whether it is mere trash if it is not a pristine big name Gendaito. Your Grandfather left it to you, cherish it...

 

Dave M.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

PSA - and with all due respect to Dave M

To anyone reading this forum, please, please, please do not send anyone, even your worst enemy to Harunaka Hoshino. He is a known fraud and is responsible for the theft and destruction of Japanese swords. He is the only person ever to have his membership revoked in the history of the Northern California Japanese Sword Club.

 

David - I have to agree with those that assess this as a severely damaged blade. There will be people who can clean it up and maybe make it more presentable but I don't think Jimmy is the guy. In fact I would be very reluctant to show him such a blade without first having passed it before others. As Dave M says there will be many knowledgeable people at the San Francisco show and honest opinions are readily had.

 

And for anyone who is wondering, yes there will be a San Francisco Sword Show this year! It is our hope that everyone who needs it will have the vaccine by August and travel will be easier for everyone - even if we are still under restrictions we will do whatever it takes to provide safe, social distanced, sword shopping. All the information is online now; www.ncjsc.org please make your reservations, we hope to see you all there.

 

David - you have a neat inheritance there, not an "art sword" perhaps but a neat sword nonetheless.

-t

Thomas C Helm

President - Northern California Japanese Sword Club

www.ncjsc.org

www.toryu-mon.com

[ChrisW]

Mr. Hayashi = Harunaka Hoshino? Or am I missing something here?

[Toryu2020]

Jimmy Hayashi - fully trained and licensed Japanese Sword Polisher.

Harunaka Hoshino - Fake ninja, fake swordsman, fake kantei, fake polisher...

-t

[Hshsurf]

Thank you Thomas for the info. I plan to come down to the show in August and will bring the sword with me. I am very interested in learning more about it and it's history. I would also be very happy to find the correct tsuba and tassel to go with it. Having never been before, how should I go about bringing the sword in for folks to inspect and comment on it? Thanks!

[ChrisW]

See, that's what I thought. I was certain they were different people but I must have misread what you wrote!

[vajo]

Help me please. Is this here a joke talk?

 

Swordshow, togishi, nihonto, old piece, interesting sord hidden gem?

 

That must be a late night show, which i did not understand. Its a dead horse nothing more.

[PNSSHOGUN]

You can find a replacement Tsuba and tassel on eBay or post a wanted ad in the classifieds. The blade looks pretty rough, I wouldn't advise going crazy contacting Togishi about it. Take it to the show first, you may even be able to find a Tsuba and tassel there. 

[Bruce Pennington]

There are a couple for sale on ebay right now, but they aren't the pierced kind.  No requirement that they be pierced, but with your quality fittings, I'd personally hold out for one.

[dwmc]

Tom Helm,

 

I'm very happy you responded, and in retrospect should have mentioned you and the Northern California Japanese Sword Club for potential guidance...

 

Chris (Vajo), if your missing something in translation, I apologize, nothing complicated,  just a young man looking for information on his inherited sword. Again , no one is suggesting the sword is anything but what it is, but simply encouraging a young person to become interested in researching and possibly collecting Japanese swords...

 

I lived in Ca. for many years and attended several SF sword shows as well as many sword and gun shows. I was  invited to a gun/sword show in the Bay area years ago and was bringing a Shin-gunto to gather information. I had managed to previously translate the Nakago inscription.  There were many sword dealers at the show and most were interested in taking a look at my sword. Not one was able to translate even a single character of the inscription. This was the case as I moved from dealer to dealer, for the most part they had nothing positive to say but " I'll give ya a hunerd dollers fer er."

 

Eventually, I arrived at a booth which had several nice Japanese swords, the gentleman there was very friendly and asked permission to look at my sword. He removed the tsuka and immediately translated the inscription, instantly knew who, when, and where the sword was forged. How could you not be somewhat impressed. He also pointed out it was well forged Gendaito. I relayed to him what I had experienced with most other dealers there and his response was not at all complimentary toward the others. The gentleman was Harunaka Hoshino. I later began hearing negative information about Mr. Hoshino, and was frankly rather stunned judging from my personal experience with him. I have since heard many negative opinions regarding Mr. Hoshino and not for a moment doubt Mr. Tom Helm's assessment of him. However, I did mention Mr. Hoshino's has a spurious reputation, but I also have to say, in my opinion the guy knows his swords....

 

Agree with John and Bruce,  SF sword show is best bet, Tom Helm and others will be there and  am sure they will be happy to help, all friendly knowledgeable  people. Also, with all due respect to Bruce, I would wait for the sword show with tsuba, unless you are sure of  precise measurements, they rarely fit properly off ebay.

 

Again, good luck and best regards to all !

 

Dave M.

 

 

[Toryu2020]

David T -

There are few restrictions for carrying a sword in San Mateo County - Bring it in a bag or gun case and you can walk right into the hotel and show room. The hotel staff are well aware of our idiosyncrasies by now...

-t