shan Posted December 17, 2008 Report Posted December 17, 2008 Its returned and i think is looking good. Can anyone place this in a period and possible school? How would you describe the activity you see? Its hamon changes at the point of Yokote on both sides. I would love to know what you think of it, so have run off some very quick pictures. Regards Shan
Brian Posted December 17, 2008 Report Posted December 17, 2008 I have no idea of the school, but I like it. Very attractive blade, and I love the way the hamon changes at the yokote. I don't think there were very many smiths making osoraku tanto, so pinning it down to a few should be too hard. Did this one skip the shinsa? Brian
shan Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Posted December 17, 2008 HI Brian, Thanks it is a handsome blade ....Now.(you have seen the "before" images in another post) Yes, i like the way the smith thought about the hamon that way and made it change at Yokote.(made it easy for the togoshi to pinpoint Yokote location) My only regret is that the togoshi has taken our about 5 "war" notches from the mune that i had asked remain.(it does look nice without,but i like the war wounds personally) Re shinsa: It was one i wanted to send to shinsa ,but it only came back today so it was not ready then. If it was ready, it would have been presented along with the Baby wakizashi that came back today as well.(also posted on the forum) Both are very nicely made items IMHO. Truth is i was not sure what to expect from a shinsa so only sent 3 blades when i could gave sent 12 or more. I had to decide on the ones that i wanted to know more about, that were in a good state of polish. If anyone can sugest a smith who may have made this (other than Kiyomaru who didn`t make this)then please do so. I am not so advanced that i can read the activity either ,what would describe the "black" lines in the hamon? regards Shan
shan Posted December 17, 2008 Author Report Posted December 17, 2008 Inazuma, was this an intentional trait? Anyone care to have a go at date and school based on the activity and the blade? regards shan
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted December 17, 2008 Report Posted December 17, 2008 Shan, a Togishi worths his salt usually have an idea of what he's handling even before the polish. So what was the opinion of yours that had the opportunity to hold the blade in hands before and after the polish ?
shan Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Posted December 18, 2008 Carlo, I have no Idea as i rarely get the chance to talk to him. I merely send the items by post on an email confirmed & booked date and he returns them when finished with a Bill for the payment. I get an email stating the item is on its way back and that is that. In March i will send 3 more swords and when done it will get an email stating that they are on there way back. He is far too busy to answer a phone.I have spoken to him once by phone since i have used him and he called me. I could ask by email but it could be (and usually is) a very long wait. Hence it may be quicker with all the Nihonto collectors to ask here on the forum. Carlo stated "Shan, a Togishi worths his salt usually have an idea of what he's handling even before the polish." I fail to see how any Togoshi that has been presented with a blade showing no hada or hamon and certainly needing its lines refreshed could know what he was going to do or even what he had before at the very least opening a window or starting the polish to see what is there hada and hamon wise.(do they kantei rusty obscured blades?) The blade had endured many years of home polishing (sanding) and abuse from its other owners so nothing was really there to see. The hamon changes at the Yokote so in order to determine the Yokote placement he needed to see that change. Even the best togoshi needs to "see the canvas " no? Perhaps Ted can help as a resident togoshi on the forum? regards Shan
Bugyotsuji Posted December 18, 2008 Report Posted December 18, 2008 The verb 'Togu' is to sharpen/polish. 'Togimasu!' would mean 'I will sharpen it!" "Toide-imasu" would mean that someone is "sharpening" it. "Togimashita" is the past tense, meaning (someone) "polished it." "Togi" would refer to the general process, and the person who does it is a Togi Master or "Togi-Shi".
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted December 18, 2008 Report Posted December 18, 2008 I fail to see how any Togoshi that has been presented with a blade showing no hada or hamon and certainly needing its lines refreshed could know what he was going to do or even what he had before at the very least opening a window or starting the polish to see what is there hada and hamon wise.(do they kantei rusty obscured blades?) Guess you've not clear enough the togi process. Before the polish means after all the checks (Windows included) that are needed to understand if the blade can sustain or deserve a polish. More, different schools and periods needs special attentions, so a Togishi (that's worth his salt) MUST know what he has in hands (surely at least a period and possibleschool ) *before* the polish in order to take the correct steps no matter about the conditions of the blade. Not a perfect kantei but has to be close enough. Best wishes for the online appraisal.
pcfarrar Posted December 18, 2008 Report Posted December 18, 2008 Some angled photos so we can see the nioi line would be helpful.
shan Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Posted December 18, 2008 No Nick, This was by Les Stewart. He is booked up until 2010/11 and beyond, but i have a few more slots booked in march/April and again in August /sept for a handful of potential "keepers" and then a about 5 windows on some more and 6 Kozuka Kogatana blades that are signed and nicely tempered.(just want to see how they turn out). regards Shan
shan Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Posted December 18, 2008 Hi Jacques, Well i suppose i have to take the Bait ....but why not a great job? :? It was an old blade i believe and also in fairly poor condition to start with, but if you say its "not a great job", then i would like some reasons why you felt the need to express that. :| many thanks Shan
Guest nickn Posted December 18, 2008 Report Posted December 18, 2008 its just not a good polish by any standard how are his prices?
drbvac Posted December 18, 2008 Report Posted December 18, 2008 I too as a novice would like to hear why it is not a good polish by any standards and if it is no good what difference the cost unless he did it for nothing!
shan Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hello, If you would be so kind as to elaborate or give reasons for your statements gentlemen, we Novices could at least understand where your seeing something that either should not be there and is...or should be there and is not. :? Then perhaps an image of what exactly you are using as a point of reference. I am not dissagreeing with you but i would love to know whats wrong with the polish. Have a look at the shinogi Zukuri Tanto as well i posted and give an opinion on that one please. I just want to know. Many thanks shan
John A Stuart Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 I thought you all might like to see an osorakuzukuri wak recently added to the Token Society of Great Britain's sword register by Clive Sinclaire. There is a brief history of the style in the write-up. John http://www.to-ken.com/ Click on the 'sword register' tab and then scroll and click on item #94
shan Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Posted December 19, 2008 Interesting item and brief history. I have seen the story before and heard it on the forum as well. 14th to 16th century osoraku-zukuri tanto were made by Hizen Tadayoshi,Umetada Myoju and a few others. in the early 19th century it was again popular among certain smiths and was favored by Kiyomaro,Masao, Kurihara Nobuhide,Kiyondo,and Saneo.Kurihara Nobuhide also made them at the end of the 19th century. I have read this somwhere. regards Shan
Jacques Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hi, Shan Why did i say that's not a great job? Just looking at the shinogi which is "sinusoidal" . There is also some thing odd around the yokote, the hamon seems discontinuous. A little ask, what are the dark lines running across the yakiba and which are improperly called inazuma?
pcfarrar Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 Why did i say that's not a great job? Just looking at the shinogi which is "sinusoidal" . I can see what you mean but are you sure its not barrel distortion on the photo. I think the sword would also have looked better in sashikomi.
Guest nickn Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 shan its like comparing paint jobs on cars dont you have any swords in Japanese polish? i can try and take some photos of some swords polished by a well know Japanese polisher so that you can see the difference nick
Ford Hallam Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 To be frank chaps, I think trying to judge the standard of a polish based on such poor images ( sorry Shan ) is bit like appraising wine while it's still in the bottle. Perhaps the discussion would more helpfully be about how to improve the photo's :D
shan Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hi all, Firstly the shinogi is correct and the images make it look wavy and "untrue",Its the way the light playes on the lines. However,as the blade shinogi goes into the nakago there is a "change" on both sides. This was there when i bought it and i thought it looked a little odd then as well.That was when it was in (out of) Old Japanese polish. The lines on the blade are good as it goes to the nakago it waves once a little and on both sides in exactly the same place. I do prefer sashikomi but as sugested here on this forum,i let the polisher decide. I have no idea what the dark lines are Jacques thats why i asked,is it Ashi? Its not shinae in the steel of that i am sure but it has quite a lot of them within the hamon. I am sure this is not as good as some blades that are Japanese polished Nick,but then some Japanese polishes are quite bad anyway i hear stories all the time about unscrupulous polishers in Japan ruining blades by giving them to students. I will take some lightbox images and see if we can get to the bottom of this. It i agree has one or two small elaments that i think need to be redone.The mune has a sharp feel to the lower RHS edge (a lip) and the Yokote on one side is not very clean. Jacques,The smith changed the Hamon style when he got tot the Yokote area,is that why you say the hamon is discontinuous? which side do you refer to? Ford,I will Improve the photo`s,give me until tonight. thanks Shan
Jacques Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hi, Firstly the shinogi is correct and the images make it look wavy and "untrue",Its the way the light playes on the lines. Light never plays with lines it always follows them.
drbvac Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 Now that u point that area out can see the wave so thanks - anything else that makes it not very good?
shan Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hi Jacques, can you point it out on one of these images for me? I am not seeing it whilst holding the blade no matter how hard i try. regards shan
Brian Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 Shan, I think it is there, but very slight and amplified by the light conditions. I wouldn't worry about it. Full Japanese polish is softer and different, but then I bet you didn't pay $1500 either. I don't want this going into a huge debate about Japanese vs Western polishes. We all know that the forum only recommends traditional Japanese polishes and those trained in Japan. The nature of the forum prevents us from recommending anything less, you will understand. I only really got it when seeing blade after blade in Japan in full polish, looking soft and silky and smoothe and liquid. Has to be seen to be understood. On a different note..is that masame I am seeing above the shinogi? Just a quick look, but if so then we may be leaning towards Mino tradition? Brian
Jacques Posted December 19, 2008 Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hi, can you point it out on one of these images for me? On photoshoped pictures?
shan Posted December 19, 2008 Author Report Posted December 19, 2008 Hi Jacques, You said "Light never plays with lines it always follows them." I say: Depends on the angle of the light and the angle of the camera and the angle of the subject including the way the light flares when capturing the image i would guess. Photoshopped eh? .........How strange .........why would i bother Jacques? I used a homemade lightbox with Nikon D3 (without the SB900 Flash unit) and Nikkor 24-70mmm F/2.8 Nanocoated lens. I am still experimenting and clearly getting poor results,as i am a sports photographer and still life is alien to me.(as is a short lens,I am more comfortable with the 70-200mm AFS ED IF VR f/2.8 but thats a little too long for this application) I have looked with the human eye and if it was there i would merely send the blade back for relining by Les.If its there i cannot see it. I am a little confused that the blade has elicited such negative responces based on these images and when i take some that don`t show the Light fault,get accused of manipulation,but perhaps it is a bad polish from the images and maybe it should go back. :? Your right Brian,in that it would have to be a special blade to warrent a Japanese polish at Japanese costs. $101 per inch (as a start price and condition dependant) then $505 handling fee, plus the costs of sending to Japan. So thats a 9.8 inch blade.$1506 before postage and insurances. times that by 2 blades =$3012 This was not worth that cost IMHO it was too abused,so i was happy to pay the $240 Les charged for each Blade. $480 total.
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