Kotosho Tsuba

Brian · December 18, 2008

Remy,

In this case, I believe the topic of your tsuba has run its course, and nothing further can possibly be deduced from it. In that case, I don't mind if the subject veers off in this direction. A stand alone thread on art and appreciation seldom works anyways, without a starting off point.

To everyone else...

I do believe that this subject can be debated politely and reasonably without resorting to insults or bickering. And so please bear in mind that I will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who takes this thread that way. I'd like to hear more, and the only way this can happen is if we maintain a civil discussion. Advance warning if you like...

Brian

John A Stuart · December 18, 2008

I just love how this subject shows how mindsets determine one's outlook on one of the hardest things to define. We have had discussions on this subject on this forum and others and it goes on everywhere and probably can never be resolved. The problem arises, I think, when you have them that create, them that critique and them that collect with all their preconceptions trying to find a commonality. You have the artist thinking, "What's wrong with you? Don't you see the message there? It is you that is obtuse." Then the critic, "What's wrong with you? Don't you see my interpretation of the message? It is you that can't be taught." The collector, "Whats wrong with me? I don't always understand the message. Will I ever learn?" or the enlightened collector, "Must be you. The message is clear to me, it is addressed to me personally, but, I had to learn to read first." Without a full understanding of what art is supposed to convey how can anyone decide if it in fact does so? Some are visceral intuitive messages and others are hieratic and you have to have the key, knowledge. John

Ford Hallam · December 18, 2008

Hi Steve,

I enjoyed your reply. On reflection it made me realise that my own view hasn't been clarified. In fact I agree entirely with the points you make and as such feel that the broader awareness of the pitfalls of the past might well equip us to better approach the subject with a little more lightness of touch :D .

Part of what I feel very strongly about is the need to let go of our preconceived tastes. By this I mean the sub-conscious absorption of the "common aesthetic" we were raised in. Personally, as an artist, I have tried to counter this bias by means of study and exposure. This, coupled by a genuine desire to simply try to observe things in as neutral a state as possible may help us grow beyond the limitations of our individual circumstances.

regards,

ford

Jesper · December 18, 2008

Hi all,

Just for comparision, here is an example of a nice Tosho tsuba. NBTHK paper.

Jesper

zuiho · December 19, 2008

Hello,

Great discussion here. I like how assessment of a minor craft item has evolved into arguments on

the philosophy of art. Clearly, Remy likes his new tsuba. Its classic theme of negatively

silhouetted mushrooms combined with the texture and tones imparted by age make

it a desirable item.

That does not mean it will appeal to all . Art is like that. I happen to like heianjo tsuba. I also

happen not to like ko tosho tsuba very much and namban tsuba , to me, are only good as trivets.

On the other hand, I think tsuba done by the Umetada smiths to be, at times , brilliant.

The point, for me , is that one should cultivate one's own aesthetic sense of what is good through

study , research and direct observation of the subject of interest.

You can then collect what you like without worrying over others' personal opinions.

This is my take on the matter, anyway.

William G.

Ford Hallam · December 19, 2008

Artwork is like a flower, we can enjoy it, but to understand it we must first learn about the systems which created it: air, water, earth, seeds, the sun, etc. So to fully understand anything seems to me an infinite task, but one which increases ability to explore and even enjoy various kinds of art.

John Dewey

I did a little dig around on-line for some background material to help clarify what we mean when we talk about aesthetics. I did this because I sometimes feel that there is a distrust of this discipline, as though it is just yet another attempt by "authorities" to impose their own standards. Personally I think that the study of aesthetics actually provides the tools to help you ultimately form your own informed opinions. So if you're interested here are two short essays which might prove helpful.

Exploring the meaning of the term "aesthetics"

Art criticism:judgement versus taste

and here, on the same site, you'll find some more essays that may be of further interest.

John A Stuart · December 19, 2008

I think these are the most crucial statements in those articles; "It is when searching for the most logical, relevant and reasonable explanations and conclusions that one expands his or her understanding of and appreciation for the nature and values of art." and "When reasons are provided for one's judgments, a basis exists for both discussion and evaluation." John

Steve Waszak · December 19, 2008

Ford,

Well done. No time to read these just now, but I definitely will. I want to clarify one thing, too: I really appreciate and applaud your efforts to zero in so tightly on the aesthetics questions you do. I am in full agreement with you that aesthetics are a hugely important part of philosophy, and whether most of us are conscious of it or not, the entire human experience. I look forward to reading these articles... Thanks for providing these... )

Cheers,

Steve

remzy · December 19, 2008

Im not sure that over analysing philosophy about aeshtetic will obligatory lead you to better appreciation of art... you will be able to amaze others with your knowledge, yes... but will you ever take the time to appreciate what you have infront of you instead of over analysing it?

Japanese art appreciation is not a science to me and it always surprised me to see such a scientifical or cartesian approach applyed to art objects that were made for a very simply purpose and with a very spiritual ideal rather than for aesthetical reasons, at first anyways!

Thats my personnal view on that.

Steve Waszak · December 19, 2008

Hi Remy,

I sympathize with your point of view here, actually... ) I guess for me, the two "approaches" are not mutually exclusive. I can easily be affected emotionally by a work of art without thinking of it analytically at all; I can also approach that work with intellectual curiosity, and seek to understand its structures, properties, etc... Again, for me, the latter does not eliminate the former... )

Cheers,

Steve

Bungo · December 19, 2008

hey, after spending majority of your life time " studying " " ART APPRECIATION ".......you gotta be able to put it down in high sounding philosophyical treatise.

To be able to dress subjectivity into the guise of objectivity.........priceless.

p.s. i still like the earwig

my philosophy is very simple.............. whatever turn you on, it's cool. Won't get me an appointment to Harvard but i am happy, and that's good enough for me.

peace............

milt

docliss · December 19, 2008

This ongoing correspondence has been interesting to read, but have not most of its contributors failed to acknowledge one indisputable fact? While ‘beauty’ must remain subjective and a matter of taste, ‘workmanship’ is quite separate from this, and it was a question of ‘workmanship’ that initiated this thread. The richness of shakudō; the quality of nanako and ishime; and the skill of katakiri-bori and taka-bori are not subjective judgments, and we should be quite capable of objectivity in judging the quality of such factors while assessing the quality of a work.

John L.

Brian · December 19, 2008

John,

Couldn't agree more. I have often said that perhaps the kinko collectors have it easier, as good quality kinko works are usually right there, and in your face. You can see the quality of the shakudo, carving, inlay etc. Perhaps not every time of course, but it pales in comparisson to some of the difficulties in judging more subtle or refined iron works. I guess this was initiated by this tosho/katchushi/Onin etc tsuba, where iron works need a more educated eye to see what separates fair from good from excellent.

In other words, I could show my aging mother a good Goto piece, and she would immadiately go "Wow!" but if I showed her an Akasaka vs Shoami sukashi vs Higo sukashi piece, she wouldn't know one from the other.

I know I am simplifying it a lot, but it is just a generalization and of course has many exceptions.

A lot of good work is right there to see. Then you get the subtle iron workings and peaceful scenery of a Kaneie tsuba, and you need knowledge and education to identify what you are looking at.

Some will see beauty in fine Kinko work, and perhaps refinement and artistry in good iron. Others may say both are beautiful. I guess this is what we are really discussing.

Artistry/beauty/mastery/technique/depiction.....all words that are used differently in looking at different Japanese forms of art. I would describe a Goto piece as beautiful..not sure I would call an old Akasaka tsuba as beautiful..although it is certainly mastery of the art form in a different way. I guess there will be different views though, and all are welcome

Brian

John A Stuart · December 19, 2008

In other discussions I have mentioned a similar view. It had to do with craftsman as opposed to artist or craftsman as an artist. You can have a superbly competent craft work that has little artistic merit. Everything done with great technical proficiency, but, lacking in spirit or elan, if you will. One is objectively appreciated and the other subjectively. I think it is when you have both factors in an object that you reach master craft and the realm of art. To me, I'm an engineer, technical competence surpasses the artfulness, but, when they combine both aspects in a piece, a step above the ordinary can't be denied. An example is the sue-Seki kachuuchimono swords that are undeniably proficient weapons, but, hardly works of art. John

Bungo · December 19, 2008

workmanship ? Taste ?...........lack of both is not a work by the master ?

let's check out the bamboo done by a master..............

tiger is good, can't say the same about the weak looking bamboo. You can always agrue it's intentional then it's like the Picadilly Circle merry go around............

milt