Kotosho Tsuba

[remzy]

Greetings fellow tsubaphiles, i just received this superb tsuba which i think is kotosho with a sukashi design of either mushrooms or pines, since i claim no right to never be wrong i would like to know what you guys think.

 

it is about 2mm thick all around and there doesnt seem to be a variation on the thickness from seppadai to mimi and its about 8cm x 9cm. The patina is possibly the most "wet looking" i have ever seen, it almost look like it has been lacquered but there is no trace of it, i am a bit perplexed because i hope that the shinyness wasnt "enhanced" or faked, but it looks quite geniune when under a strong light and under close inspection.

 

It is unsigned so its normal i think, i wouldnt know if the anas were added later on or not, but they do look fairly original.

 

here are some pics! This is sort of my own xmas gift from myself to myself.. i love kotoshos, i just hope it doesnt turn up to be a fake!

 

 

http://i39.tinypic.com/2e3zmdt.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/2nb9auu.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/juixpk.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/rathsh.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2hnay4o.jpg

[shan]

Hi,

I like it,I think it was on ebay or somewhere i saw it,maybe a book.

Its has some tekkotsu seen on the mimi if i am not mistaken, so it will have some age unless they are contrived bones.

It for me is hard to tell if its in good or bad condition, but i would hazard a guess that it has been subjected to a fire at some point which resulted in the shiny oily look and the irregularity of shape(maybe) if not just badly rusted.

If i had to make an uneducated guess (and it will be) i would say Edo period (17th century) in a style very similar to Yamakichibei works of that period.

I am sure i am going to be ridiculed for trying but i have to start somewhere.

I really like it though so well done and happy Xmas from you. :D

shan

[Bungo]

soooooooooooo you are THE ONE that outbidded me.

I think it's a good one.

Some of my real old tsuba ( and i got those from Skip Holbrook, not e-bay ) have that wet glossy patina but none are as big as yours.

 

milt

[Rich T]

It is not Ko Tosho, they did not make Mokko gata tsuba, just round. It might be Katchu-shi however as they used Maru, Kaku and Mokko in their works. Besides Maru, Kaku might have been very very early, but Mokko I think for the most part would be late Muromachi onwards so it would not receive the KO attribution in shinsa any more. It could also be an Owari (region) tsuba or one of the Owari groups such as Yamakeichibe or Ono, or a copy of one of these. In fact Ono could be a better call than all of these.

 

This example form Jim G's site for instance

 

This looks to have some pretty severe rust damage that is old, in the Ji. One of my initial thoughts was it was a late copy. One last note, the shape of the nakago ana can help define the older tsuba in Tosho, Katchu-shi and the Irogane Ko tsuba.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

cheers

 

Richard

[remzy]

Youch! Rich, late copy? i hope its not expensive junk...

 

Maybe Shan is right and it got burnt to make it look older, urg...

 

[Bungo]

what's with all the pessimism ?

 

aren't we seeing monsters under the bed all the time now ? I can't be 100% but the tsuba doesn't look like it has fire scales.

Patina looks fine to me but then i was one of the underbidder so take my opinion with a lump of salt.

 

milt

[Grey Doffin]

I have always associated a dry, dull patina with iron tsuba that have been burnt. My guess is that it isn't burnt and also that it isn't old enough to be ko Tosho. The placement of the sukashi, allowing room for Kotsuka and Kogai hitsu-ana, suggests to me that the ana are original to the tsuba. The condition, I think, is most likely the result of corrosion.

But, what do I know about tsuba?

Grey

[John A Stuart]

I mistrust certain patina found on pics of tsuba. I'll explain. Iron that has been subjected to fire by accident will show spoon-like pitting from sloughing of oxidised metal and the dry surface Grey mentions. Nakago of swords that have been in fires have these characteristics. Certain tsuba have firing done as part of the process of manufacture and creates a hard, smooth and shiney outer layer. It won't have the pitting. Waxing a tsuba, whether by ibota or rennaissance wax, that has the dry fired look will get a similar look, but, in hand, will be obvious, if not so, by pitting signs. John

[Martin]

The fact that this piece shows a somehow complex design (with quite a lot Sukashi elements) I would hesitate to call it Ko-Tosho.

As Richard stated above Ko-Tosho pieces were futhermore (I guess one could say always) Maru Gata.

It might be possible, that the shape was altered to its Mokko form during time (maybe due to damage of the rim) but that´s just one possibility.

It could also be a later copy of a Katchu-Shi piece.

 

As for the surface - I also think that its roughness was caused by (severe) rust.

 

Cheers,

[Henry Wilson]

I feel it could be Owari group, could it possibly be Hoan? I think a lot of Owari tsuba have a blue / purplish tinge to it like this one but not visible in the pics:

 

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4383

 

As everyone has said I agree that the tsuba in question is probably is not Tosho for the reasons they state.

 

Could the theme be rain falling on mushrooms? I think it is quite nice and the metal could be a lot better in person and not true to the pics. I don't think the shape has been altered as the rim tapers and is maru with a granular surface.

 

Just my thoughts.

[docliss]

On p. XV of his descriptive catalogue of the GH Naunton collection Joly wrote:

 

… to run after rough pieces of alleged Eleventh to Fifteenth Centuries because of

their supposed age is not Fine Art collecting, it is Antiquarian collecting, and it is

a strange kink to hypnotise oneself into seeing so much in alleged antiquity that

age is sought for rather than beauty.

 

In asking if Remzy’s tsuba really is a thing of beauty, rather an antiquated relic that has seen much better days, I await a barrage of irate responses with some nervousness!

 

John L.

[shan]

Hello all,

I know its a very poor comparison and nothing like yours but:

The reason i sugested fire was that i have a Plain Tsuba that has about a third that looks like that shiny textured surface and the rest looks "normal" i have always thought that this was subjected to excessive heat or fire rather than just rust as the area affected was specific and rust to that degree would mean the area was exposed for a long time.The back is not affected,so i would guess was protected by the floor (or table).

If the item was say part buried in the earth at that area then both sides would be effected.

if the tsuba was buried in protective material and the effected area was exposed to the elements to corrode then again,both sides would show these signs.

My guess is is was on a floor and the fire got very close and scorched the steel but did not actually make contact.The Tsuba was not badly effected as it is a 6.5mm plate.

But i am probably completely wrong.

regards

Shan

 

 

[Brian]

I'm with the Doc on this one.

Too much deep analysis of mediocre pieces is one thing...but when something good comes along it is relatively ignored.

Some good info given here, but i don't think you can go further than that without wild speculation. Fire scale...hmmm.

Maybe just many years of hard wear and rust.

Some of the theories here lately seem to be sucked out of thin air, and then used to validate views on other items. I would suggest proving the theory first before using it on other cases.

I'm with Rich, Grey, Martin etc. Just an old tsuba with lots of wear. If I had to give an opinion, I would go with Katchushi, but I wouldn't like to "box" it in a certain school too firmly. Doesn't look worth the while to fake an older piece in this case..I would stick with "it is what it looks like"

If we are going to run with wild theories, then how about submerged for a while instead of fire? :?

 

Brian

[Guido]

Too much deep analysis of mediocre pieces ...

... is exactly what's happening here lately.

 

All those posts about pieces that were bought for a song on eBay in the delusional hope that it might be a national treasure are bordering on the bizarre. Please no more I don't know what I bought but hope against all odds that you guys tell me it's a great piece threads!

 

Sorry for highjacking this thread, but Brian gave me the perfect line. Plus, I'm starting to loose control of my evil twin again, and we don't want that to happen, do we?

[Brian]

 

- B -

[Ford Hallam]

But i am probably completely wrong.

regards

Shan

 

hmmm....yeah, probably

 

...and I love that quote of Henri Joly's that Dr John posted....pretty much sums it up for me.

[remzy]

Too much deep analysis of mediocre pieces ...

... is exactly what's happening here lately.

 

All those posts about pieces that were bought for a song on eBay in the delusional hope that it might be a national treasure are bordering on the bizarre. Please no more I don't know what I bought but hope against all odds that you guys tell me it's a great piece threads!

 

Sorry for highjacking this thread, but Brian gave me the perfect line. Plus, I'm starting to loose control of my evil twin again, and we don't want that to happen, do we?

 

Im not really willing to elaborate alot so ill be brief, to whomever with the same pov stated above^, that wasnt my goal at all to buy a cheapo old tsuba in hope to hit the jackpot..., and to be honest, i liked this tsuba in its current state and wanted to share the pictures and maybe learn a few things (i did, which is nice), i do not remember saying or even hoping to find a national treasure in that, that was quite random and judgmental to assume that of me especially since i do not recall doing this (posting pics) on a regular basis. I was simply surprised to read that some think that this could most possibly be junk...

Sure, you can call anyone not agreeing with your view an antiquarian all you want, that is your choice and we all agree on that, but to think that beauty is unilateral and that we all see the same things or look for the same kind of beauty is a huge mistake in my opinion. Im doing my coming out! I like rough looking sukashi iron tsubas! i just didnt expect to be smacked up for that!

 

I do not want this thread to be locked up, but meh... thanks for everyone who provided information, it is really appreciated.

Regards

Remy

[Martin]

In asking if Remzy’s tsuba really is a thing of beauty, rather an antiquated relic that has seen much better days, I await a barrage of irate responses with some nervousness!

 

John,

I think Joly and now you hit the nail right on the head.

What we should always look for as collectors is quality and beauty. Of course this is much harder to come by the more we go back in time...

Almost all long year collectors tell you: Try to collect only the best (and typical examples from a school). Better one very good piece per year (or even after more years of saving up) than 30 average ones.

I know this can be sometimes hard, but I guess it´s true.

 

Cheers,

[rkg]

Hi,

 

Let's try this again - for some reason my last post didn't seem to go through...

 

I actually had some time to look at Eprey in the last week or three and remember seeing this piece. The dimensions and composition say "saotome" to me (as I think the seller mentioned), but the surface does not. It appears to have either been burned (most likely) or was badly corroded and boned back to life (or all of the above), and it might well have been repatinated on top of that.

 

Just an opinion that is probably worth what you paid for it...

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Bungo]

remzy,

forget e-bay..buy ONLY from Ginza galleries in Tokyo.

You get what you pay for.

p.s. I heard having tea at the rock garden calms your ( customer ) nerves...........

 

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

Remy,

 

I don't think the latter part of this discussion was particularly directed at you or your tsuba. The way I saw it was more a general expression of concern at the sort of thing we are seeing a lot of recently. The criticism seemed to me to to be more about not trying to "see" more there than there really is.

 

Yours is a perfectly honest tsuba, you like it...and that's absolutely fine. But the point is not to lose sight of the bigger picture and in this we need to constantly work towards a better understanding and appreciation of what constitutes real quality in this field.

 

Matters of personal taste aside, there are objective criteria in all art forms which we can learn to recognise and enjoy. The danger of ignoring these is that we all simply end up just liking what we like and we get no-where....we'll have no consensus on values and we end up with a situation where we democratise art on the basis that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The absurdity of that scenario is clear :?

 

I better say no more now because last time I pursued this tack I got lots of knickers in knots

 

Regards,

 

Ford

 

p.s. while everyone may be entitled to their own opinion not everyone is entitled to be taken seriously

[Brian]

Remy.

As Ford said, the posts are not directed at your tsuba specifically. Sometimes someone is going to have to be the starter of a point that needs to be made, and in this case yours was the one

Fair to medium iron tsuba were selling in Japan for $600 to $1000. Since no-one here with an eBay item has paid that for theirs, I really think it is silly to be offended if it doesn't turn out to be a masterpiece. I also think it is silly to get offended when some item is not thought to be masterful work by some mainline artist. That doesn't make things junk. Poeple are paying $300-400 on eBay for stuff, and getting just that. The fact that it might not be a $2000 set is supposed to be a tragedy?

I would be very surprised if there wasn't 1000 people looking at the better looking stuff online. Chances of them going for a song are minimal. Yes..it happens, but when I find an item that looks good to me, and turns out to be gimei, then I still enjoy it as a good piece, just not by the artist. And of course our opinions are just that...opinions. We would all love to be wrong and for something really good to be discovered.

I see too many people buying names and not enjoying what they have. It's all a bit beyond me.

 

Brian

[remzy]

Fair enough guys, i suppose that i was the starter as you said Brian, i wasnt offended by the comments, just how it was randomly thrown in here and collateraly, at me. But no big deal i guess, as many have said earlier you get what you pay for and im not one of these guys looking for sleepers, i only purchase what i like... so sue me if it isnt to your standards! :lol:

Sorry Ford but i somewhat disagree with you on that, noone has to be told what to look for or be told what is beauty, many people think that flowers are beautiful, but not because someone told them that they are truly beautiful and that you have to like them, they simply are beautiful, for no particular reasons and that is what makes them so, imho. Anyways this is offtopic to this thread since i know this tsuba isnt a work of beauty and i have never made such claim, i like it for what it is.

[reinhard]

Matters of personal taste aside, there are objective criteria in all art forms which we can learn to recognise and enjoy.

 

Should be painted red and hanged over the entrance to this board.

 

reinhard

[Steve Waszak]

Regarding the notion that there are objective standards in art (appreciation/scholarship) which may be learned and applied, I would have emphatically to disagree with this. I could go into this at length, as I have done on another forum, but Deconstructive Theory (Derrida) will prove this so (as far as language is able to convey argument, reasoning, logic, etc...) for any who want seriously to pursue this... The problem is that there are some who will take subjectively arrived at "standards" and see/take them as objective fact/truth. I speak here of aesthetic considerations, rather than practical application (i.e. what makes for a "beautiful" tsuba versus what makes for an effective cutting blade...). If I am wrong, I would sincerely like to be enlightened, in the form of a single example of one of these "objective standards"... ;o)

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Guido]

@ Remy:

I'm not sure why you chose to read a personal attack into my post - I clearly said that I used Brian's quote to make a general point.

 

@ Milt:

Have you actually ever set foot into one of the "Ginza Galleries" you obviously despise so much? I never sat in a rock garden there, but have been offered tea quite often. And always the opportunity to look at some fine works of art, which never really hurts.

 

@ Steve:

So, in your opinion there is no such thing as art; art therefore can't be studied, it's like religion, you either believe in it or not. I'm not trying to mock you, I'm seriously interested in your concept.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Regarding the notion that there are objective standards in art (appreciation/scholarship) which may be learned and applied, I would have emphatically to disagree with this.

......

 

If I am wrong, I would sincerely like to be enlightened, in the form of a single example of one of these "objective standards"... ;o)

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

Gee, Steve, if you're right then kantei and shinsa is nothing but a complete waste of time. Think about it.

[remzy]

Again, I did not chose to see a personal attack , this place is offtopic magnetic lately...

[Ford Hallam]

no one has to be told what to look for or be told what is beauty

 

the problem with this statement, Remy is that people very rarely agree with each other notions of beauty. Different periods in history also have very different ideas about what constitutes beauty.

 

Steve,

 

I remember you raised this chestnut regarding objectivity previously on the Tosogu forum and while I understand the basic philosophy you are citing I don't think it's all that helpful really. It may well be "the ultimate truth" in this matter but to be honest it merely opens the door to chaos. The real problem with this theory is that once you've deconstructed something it rarely works any more :D

 

Do not all charms fly At the mere touch of cold philosophy?

 

—Keats,John

 

If we allow that everything is subjective and contextual then it becomes almost impossible for us to communicate anything of any substance to one another because we will never have any idea at all what the other really means. It's bad enough as it is without abandoning what last remnants of our notions of objective qualities remain.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Steve Waszak]

Franco,

 

Um, actually, what you say here regarding shinsa and kantei is a non-sequitur... There is objective knowledge (i.e. a blade has chikei or it doesn't) and subjective "knowledge" (i.e. chikei are "beautiful"). Kantei may be "valuable" for observing objective information, and for looking to tie such objective features to the work of specific schools, traditions, or smiths... From what I've seen, however, kantei do not extend to the point of making subjective valuations...

 

Ford,

 

Well said. But I would simply say that the "notions of objective qualities" you speak of are just that---notions---and that there should be nothing wrong with arguing, with clarity and conviction, for our (factually) subjective points of view when it comes to matters of aesthetics. In your response to Remzy, you observe that

 

"the problem with this statement, Remy is that people very rarely agree with each other notions of beauty. Different periods in history also have very different ideas about what constitutes beauty."

 

And you are exactly right here. But can you see how this puts the lie to the idea of absolute, fixed, stable, "objective" standards in aesthetics? For those whose experience and education in aesthetics has taught them that symmetry and centeredness of subject is "correct" and reflects high quality, the oft-seen Japanese aesthetic of asymmetry would be wrong, ugly, and/or incompetent. This, in fact, has historically been the case. Much of Post-Colonialist Theory, in fact, stresses the "imperialism" of standards brought by "colonizers"; aesthetic "norms" would not be outside of the dynamics here. In fact, there are amusing stories of Commodore Perry's evaluation of classic Zen sumi-e when these were presented to him. His words: "rudely-executed cartoons."

 

Despite my protestations in this line of argument, though, Ford, I do sympathize with the Keats quote you provide. Both Poe and Whitman also penned famous poems speaking to the destruction done to art under the pitiless, dispassionate lens of a Science bent on dissecting the beauty of art down to nothing. But rather than pretend that there are objective bases to return to and rely on in order to substantiate our positions, better, I believe, to acknowledge that such positions are subjective, and must be argued for.

 

Finally, my apologies to Remzy for having taken his original thread off-tangent a bit. If anyone wishes to discuss these ideas further, I would be most happy to via e-mail...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

P.S. Guido, ah, the definition of "art"... Borders on a Zen koan, I would say... lol. ;o)