Kantei on a Wakizashi

[TheGermanBastard]

I'm seeking for oppinions Kantei on this Wakizashi please

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Muromachi sukesada is my opinion. Is the other side Boshi a little different? 

[16k]

Muromachi too. Can’t say much more.

[vajo]

Koto waki. That shape is curious. Looks like a small tachi.

[sabiji]

I think the shape fits perfectly for a Katateuchi of the Muromachi. But what is it exactly? I see too little for that. Seems to have masame in the Shinogiji. Could be Sue Bizen, Could also be Odawara-Soshu, possibly also direction Wakasa- Soshu -> Fuyuhiro.

 

[TheGermanBastard]

I think Koto is a safe bet for sure.

 

The Sugata is strange. It has a huge Sori ... what was the original length and periode?

[16k]

I don’t know if this is because the blade is tired in some areas, but some picture make me think of matsukawa Hada.

[Rivkin]

I have not been very successful with kantei recently, but for whatever its worth - late Muromachi, Uda. Or Mizuta. If its more choji-gunome based than Mizuta, if there is stronger masame and the nie belts are very long - Uda. Just personal opinion.

[TheGermanBastard]

Thank you for your thoughts. I can see characteristics of Uda, Bungo and Bizen,

 

How about Dotanuki?

[Rivkin]

I think it could very well be Dotanuki. With blacker steel and longer "nie belts" I would go for Uda. Otherwise - maybe Dotanuki or Mizuta. I don't think its Kaga, Bizen or Bungo personally.

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 2/4/2021 at 5:09 AM, Rivkin said:

I think it could very well be Dotanuki

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Could you please point out the points that make you think Dotanuki? Thank you!

[16k]

Could be. Coarse, dark Hada, thick midare Hamon with sunagashi, Hamon not too bright. Kane boshi...I gotta admit that I wouldn’t have thought about it, but it’s in the realm of possibilities.

[TheGermanBastard]

Teh Sori is huge

[Jussi Ekholm]

Luis can you post measurements, nagasa, sori, nakago length and moto & sakihaba?

[TheGermanBastard]

Hello Jussi, Nagasa is 50,6 cm. I do not have it with me right now so I can not give additional mesaurements

[Rivkin]

Apologies for very personal and unnessesary pontification, they are just to help me organize my thoughts.

In Nihonto there are many periods where everyone is doing sort of the same.

In 1360s every provincial smith wanted to be Soshu. So you look at Bungo Takayuki and Echizen Mitsuyuki and they are from opposite corners of Japan, but can be quite similar.

And you see mumei blades precisely attributed to a specific name, and you think shinsa people are so smart and so experienced, they must be seeing something secret that allows them to be so precise - except when you bring it for another appraisal you get another 1360s Soshu name.

 

1520-1550 is also one of those periods. You either forge in togari that look like choji (and vice versa) and some are Bizen and some are Mino, but others like Kaga are copying those as well. Distinguishable by shape of togari, how they are grouped, how similar they are etc. This one is not it.

Or you forge in some style worthy of bastard child of Mino-Soshu. This is not Ise, I don't think its mainstream Mino, its someone who practiced notare-gunome with large wide belts of nie. Rough o-mokume sandwiched between masame (all Soshu bastard children like that). 

If jigane is really black and the belts dominate I would strongly vote Uda (as per the photograph attached). If its calmer notare can be Dotanuki but also can be a few other schools. I am sorry to say I don't think the style here is typical for the period, not really extremely school-specific.

[DKR]

What i can see on the pictures is that the hamon end at the ha-machi !

It does not run into the nakago !

The nakago show the signs of a suriage , or better  o-suriage !

If the Hamon is original to the suriage the hamon should run into the nakago! 

 

Sorry , I don't want to open a tin of worms here , but for me this is a old blade with a new yaki-ire , or better a saiha (rehardening)

This is also a explanation for the unusual strong sori.

If the man who make the saiha does not correct the shape of the old blade before the rehardening the sori become very strong like in this blade.

 

It make no sense for me to give a kantei on saiha blade .

 

This are just  my two cent.......

[16k]

Saiha is something I also thought about but was afraid to mention. I hadn’t noticed the Hamon finishing before the nakago, but the sori looks indeed weird and so deep that the possibility of retempering came to mind. But I didn’t dare say so, 'cause after all, what do I know?

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 2/4/2021 at 7:16 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

nakago length and moto & sakihaba?

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nakago 13cm

 

moto: 25mm

 

saki; 17mm

[TheGermanBastard]

  On 2/6/2021 at 9:51 AM, DKR said:

What i can see on the pictures is that the hamon end at the ha-machi !

It does not run into the nakago !

The nakago show the signs of a suriage , or better  o-suriage !

If the Hamon is original to the suriage the hamon should run into the nakago! 

 

Sorry , I don't want to open a tin of worms here , but for me this is a old blade with a new yaki-ire , or better a saiha (rehardening)

This is also a explanation for the unusual strong sori.

If the man who make the saiha does not correct the shape of the old blade before the rehardening the sori become very strong like in this blade.

 

It make no sense for me to give a kantei on saiha blade .

 

This are just  my two cent.......

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I fully understand your reasoning. But the Hamon actually travels back into the Nakago.

 

I do not think that it is Saiha while I see that the huge sori can lead to this reasoning.

[sabiji]

I am not a metallurgist, or a swordsmith, but I do not believe that Sai-Ha leads to such pronounced re-curvature. If I were to harden this blade again, would I have a half-circle?
As long as an edge is hard, the martensitic structure will occupy the appropriate space. It is a tensional structure. This structure dissolves when the blade is exposed to high heat again. Accordingly, the bend should relax again - at least to a certain degree.
In addition, I think that a swordsmith would correct the shape before rehardening, if necessary, to obtain an appropriate sori of the finished blade.

 

[TheGermanBastard]

A well respected fellow collector first suggestes Saiha uppon showing image sof the blade to him due to the huge Sori - until it was polished. He then no longer thought it to have been retempered. The Jigane does not indicate Saiha.

 

The Hamon travels into the Nakago. So it is really Suriage.

 

My own assumption is that it is a cut down Tachi. But then what do I know. That is why I am interested in hearing what other people think.

 

The fact it is Sriage probably further "exagerates" the Sori, giving it overall a somehow ood appearene. Atleast you do not see such a Sori any day, hence I am interested what the blade really is or once was.