ChrisW Posted February 1, 2021 Report Posted February 1, 2021 Jesus... that kissaki was almost ruined I'd say. At least it was saved by the other polisher.
Jean Posted February 1, 2021 Report Posted February 1, 2021 The Nihonto world is small. I have met all these people the only polisher fully trained is Massimo Rossi. Zenon Vandame was partially trained in Japan. For the others, I sall not say as Jacques that they are incompetent. They are not fully trained in Japan, but some of them were basically taught by Laurent Milhau. Some of them have passed some times in Japan, training. Some were partially trained by a fully Japanese trained French polisher who has given up polishing more than 20 years ago. Some are self taught. I had several diners with Robert Burawoy at his home and I have seen his private collection (among them a Muramasa tanto and an impressive collection of keris). He has now been retired for years. His galerie was in île St Louis, same for his flat which was the reunion of several flats in centuries old joint houses. Walls were covered by shelves loaded with books, with here and there armours, set of bow and arrows... a fantastic museum. Those were the days.... 3 1
Jacques D. Posted February 1, 2021 Report Posted February 1, 2021 34 minutes ago, Jean said: The Nihonto world is small. I have met all these people Some were partially trained by a fully Japanese trained French polisher who has given up polishing more than 20 years ago. Who ?
Jean Posted February 1, 2021 Report Posted February 1, 2021 If I remember well, his name was something like Simsic. I saw him once or twice at KTK meetings about 20 years ago.
Bruce Pennington Posted February 2, 2021 Report Posted February 2, 2021 I just read Neil's post on his Gorgeous Emura HERE, and how he was "self-taught" and yet some of his swords are true beauty. Should Emura be shunned because he wasn't trained, beginning to end, by an official Japanese swordsmith Master? His work is either crap, or wonderful, or somewhere in between. It is what it is. His crap swords "ruined" what could have been potentially a treasure. So, let's all shun Emura! I know, I know .... a poorly trained, poorly skilled polisher can ruin a blade. But the polisher's skill, and his reputation, should be measured by his successes or failures, not by whether he was self-taught or trained by a Japanese expert. 6
16k Posted February 2, 2021 Author Report Posted February 2, 2021 Well said Bruce! i don’t think an amateur should try and polish a blade. But being self taught or Japanese trained, the only thing that matters in the end is the result. but let’s not forget we’re in a hobby where traditions are often rules. 1 1
b.hennick Posted February 2, 2021 Report Posted February 2, 2021 Getting the polish done without removing too much steel is a job for a fully trained polisher. There is more to polishing than making the hamon look good. The lines must be correct and the surface not wavy. Niku is difficult to keep. It is easier to polish a flat surface than a curved one. My concern is that the not fully trained polisher will move up as he progresses to polish very good swords. 4 1
Jacques D. Posted February 2, 2021 Report Posted February 2, 2021 I would like to add that a good polisher must above all respect the work of the blacksmith, he is there to enhance it, and that starts with the respect of the architecture; for example he must respect the ratio shinogi ji / shinogi as well as the ratio thickness at mune / thickness at shinogi. A bad polisher can make a kamakura blade end up looking like a shinto blade. 3
16k Posted February 2, 2021 Author Report Posted February 2, 2021 That’s what he did actually, Jacques. As said in the other thread, this blade is signed by a Meikan More from Hizen. Pierluigi was puzzled because there were many geometry mistakes and the ko shinogi was wrong, the Yokote not defined. He studied and researched Hizen smiths of the 18th century and came up with a sugata close to mine to rectify the geometry. He also sent me a schematic with what he was endeavoring to do, with an alternative way in case he was missing material as the sword had seen many previous polishes.
JH Lee Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Here's my recent amateur polish with Japanese stones/fingerstones. FYI, it's a custom wakizashi by an American smith in W2 monosteel, NOT a nihonto. Here's what I learned: It's extremely easy to permanently disfigure a blade. We're talking tolerances of 1mm or less. The wrong angle, too little or too much pressure... once the damage is done, the only way to fix your mistake is invariably by removing more metal. There is a good reason why the classical apprenticeship for togishi is many years (now 10). Basically, I learned just how much I really don't know. And it reinforced in me the belief that no amateur should ever try restoring historical artifacts without the knowledge and training to do it correctly. "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice." The problem is that a modern W2 tool monosteel and Japanese tamahagane are different animals entirely. Given that premise, it follows that, to get good at polishing nihonto, one can only really pratice on nihonto. Without a mentor/master to teach you, it's not something you can learn by reading books or online guides. And if you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't practice on historical artifacts for your own selfish pleasure and arrogance and desire to "get better" at the cost of many irreversibly damaged blades in your wake. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes, but these are just my thoughts as a beginner collector. 6 1
Jacques D. Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 19 hours ago, 16k said: That’s what he did actually, Jacques. As said in the other thread, this blade is signed by a Meikan More from Hizen. Pierluigi was puzzled because there were many geometry mistakes and the ko shinogi was wrong, the Yokote not defined. He studied and researched Hizen smiths of the 18th century and came up with a sugata close to mine to rectify the geometry. He also sent me a schematic with what he was endeavoring to do, with an alternative way in case he was missing material as the sword had seen many previous polishes. What i meant is that a good polisher must also know the work of the blacksmiths whose blades he polishes. You don't treat a Hosho Yamato the same way you polish a Bizen blade from the same period, the stones used will not be the same. 1 1
16k Posted February 3, 2021 Author Report Posted February 3, 2021 And once again, I do agree with you Jacques, but in this case, what are you supposed to do when the swordsmith is an unknown? just to be clear, after John L.’s post: I DON'T CONDONE OR ADVOCATE ANYONE WHO WOULD WANT TO POLISH A NIHONTO BY THEMSELVES. YOU WILL RUIN YOUR BLADE AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO IT YOURSELF. IT'S A JOB BEST LEFT IN THE HANDS OF PROFESSIONALS. IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT DOING IT, WELL DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! Now, that I’ve said that, Pierluigi introduces himself as a professional. His work will be his judge and his calling card. I would never have attempted this by myself. The only issue is: what is a professional? Can’t you be one if you haven’t been Japanese trained. Surely, talent isn’t limited to a country and and art that has been mastered by some can be mastered or rediscovered by others.
Jacques D. Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 JP, Quote what are you supposed to do when the swordsmith is an unknown? I had and will never buy this kind of swords..
JH Lee Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 13 minutes ago, 16k said: just to be clear, after John L.’s post: I DON'T CONDONE OR ADVOCATE ANYONE WHO WOULD WANT TO POLISH A NIHONTO BY THEMSELVES. YOU WILL RUIN YOUR BLADE AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO IT YOURSELF. IT'S A JOB BEST LEFT IN THE HANDS OF PROFESSIONALS. IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT DOING IT, WELL DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! Now, that I’ve said that, Pierluigi introduces himself as a professional. His work will be his judge and his calling card. I would never have attempted this by myself. The only issue is: what is a professional? Can’t you be one if you haven’t been Japanese trained. Surely, talent isn’t limited to a country and and art that has been mastered by some can be mastered or rediscovered by others. Jean, I think you may have somewhat missed my point. Sorry, I should have been more clear. In the journey to get to "professional" from "amateur," one must practice. And one must necessarily practice with precious stones and even more precious nihonto. In being trained by a Japanese master through years of careful mentorship and apprenticeship, I would imagine that there are fewer irrevocable mistakes made to what are technically irreplaceable (whether juyo token or rusted mumei) historical artifacts. In a way, I was echoing Barry's concern that self-taught or even "half-taught" amateurs will damage better and better blades over time. 1
16k Posted February 3, 2021 Author Report Posted February 3, 2021 That is certainly true and I can’t deny any of it. But you also missed my point! My point was mainly, Don’t do it yourself. I wouldn’t want this thread to incite people trying to polish a nihontō by themselves. It would run opposite to my beliefs.
Alex A Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Hi JP, you been in this hobby a good while now and your wise enough to work out who is capable of doing what. As you say, we cant all send off swords to Japan for one reason or another, or even want to. Its always a risk shipping stuff overseas anyway, plenty here have had hassles Get a set time for the work, dont pay up front. Better in future just to get on with it, bringing it up here will always ruffle feathers. 1
16k Posted February 3, 2021 Author Report Posted February 3, 2021 I know Alex, I said so in my first post. I just wanted this to be educational and let people discover a potential new talent. The ruffling of feathers was anticipated. So long as I don’t get out of this with said feathers and tar!
Stephen Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Or boiled n plucked then stewed....ther was a time n not too far past it wouldn't have made past post one. Time marches on. 3
Alex A Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Some guys can do good work, but then you see bad work too, from the same guy. Commercial crappy polish that ruins blades (often required by dealers to keep costs down) Make it clear you dont want the latter.
JH Lee Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 47 minutes ago, 16k said: That is certainly true and I can’t deny any of it. But you also missed my point! My point was mainly, Don’t do it yourself. I wouldn’t want this thread to incite people trying to polish a nihontō by themselves. It would run opposite to my beliefs. Jean, at the risk of beating a dead horse... I agree with you. What I'm saying is, what should prevent amateurs like me from practicing and getting better and better at what my polish, so that one day, I can also become a "professional" and set up a website and charge people money to send me their blades? What is the difference between that, and other "professionals" who also surely practiced their way to better their knowledge and skills? If those other people get a pass, maybe people like me should, too. Maybe I'll just go meet some polishers and attend a seminar or workshop or demonstration, and then exaggerate to say that I was "trained by" those polishers to give myself a boost. Do you see the problem? I'm sorry if this seems argumentative. If so, that is not my intention. 3
Alex A Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Obviously you would only deal with someone who is well known. Some guys have 30+ years experience. 1
vajo Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Haha Luis, the yokote on the first one is so crude. I bet i could do the same! Overall some beautifull polishing scratches in the first one. Very artistic. The second one looks nearly perfect. Nice sharp lines, only the yokote has a ittle dent near the edge. Congrats who ever made it. I like what i see.
TheGermanBastard Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 32 minutes ago, vajo said: only the yokote has a ittle dent near the edge Yes, the pictures makes it look like a dent however in hand its perfect. The polisher who did it gets the lines very sharp and spends a great deal of comittment on establishing a good foundation polish. However on this one he did not go back all the way as the blade has likely been on its last polish. Therefore some sratches caused by the first "polisher" remained. At the end of the day there are good polishers and bad ones. Everybody should make sure to use a good one. 1 1
Suppaman Posted February 3, 2021 Report Posted February 3, 2021 Here someone correctly said that not only skills are necessary but high quality stones too. it'is right. I would add that nihonto knowledge is fundamental too. If a polisher is poor in kantei, he will be poor in togi too... To polish means first of all to study the sword, his creator, his school. It means to to be excellent in kantei. Unfortunally Ponzio till semptember 2017 demostrated was able neither to correctly read a torokusho and a nakago. His cv is only selfmade, and honestly report nothing interesting. Meanwhile Massimo Rossi is, on the other side first of all an estimated nihonto student who study tokens from 30+ years about. He was the only european to had ever partecipated to 3 different NBTHK togi contests, in 2009 (on suggestion by Yoshindo Yoshihara), 2010 and 2018... and to achieve 3 different nyusen. He polishes swords for Yoshindo Yoshihara here in Europe, and collaborates with some european museums. In may 2020 he had a slot in Japan Art Expo in Utrech to hold a conference on togi: https://japanartexpo.com/sword-related-presentation/ (event cancelled due covid pandemic). ...so please do not spend Rossi name near to Ponzio, they are white vs black, thanks. 3
16k Posted February 3, 2021 Author Report Posted February 3, 2021 Ouch! Nobody did compare the, though!
PNSSHOGUN Posted February 4, 2021 Report Posted February 4, 2021 This is delving into dangerous territory, in my opinion if you wish to pursue something like sword polishing you do it one way: apprenticeship in Japan under a recognized master. Why this keeps getting brought up, questioned or challenged puzzles me. 3 3
16k Posted February 4, 2021 Author Report Posted February 4, 2021 16 hours ago, Jacques D. said: JP, I had and will never buy this kind of swords.. That was my first time, be gentle!
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