Insight on weird futokoromono

PhoenixDude · January 30, 2021

Hello all, Its been a while since I posted but I have a piece here that I purchased pre covid at the SFO show in 2019 and would like some insight and/or opinions on it. I purchased this and it seemed like a legitimate piece at first glance, with very finely made details and mixed gilding, but when I got it home and started looking at the details up close with a loupe I noticed a few oddities.

Fig 1 & 2 are overall photos of the front and back. The pieces seem to be traditionally constructed and not cast, the elements seem to be integrated with the base and the nanako seems to go 'around' the base of the elements in places (See kogai detail 2). Both pieces are non magnetic.
Fig 3 & 4 are close ups of the work on the kogai and kozuka respectively. note that on closer inspection, one can begin to see where the gilding is showing on the nanako on the bottom left edge of the kogai in Fig 3, and there are some 'shiny' spots in the nanako on the left side of the kozuka in fig 4.
Notice more of this 'overrun' on the edges of the phoenix element in the kogai closeups 1, 2, and 3.

Upon further inspection, examples of this overrun can be seen in multiple other places on the piece, as well as places where the nanako seems gilded, and did not become black (Top right of kogai detail 1, top of kogai detail 6, top right of kogai detail 7, top of kozuka detail 3 and 7)
I have considered that the nanako may have been colored in by a metalworking markup dye called dyekem, but I have tested a sample of dykem on a similar surface and it does not seem to be the case.

All of this leads me to a few possible scenarios in order of my perceived likelihood:

1. This is a modern fake.

2. This could be a genuine original piece that originally had a gold nanako background, that was 'colored' in later by a owner or dealer.

3. this could be a genuine antique piece, with a construction method that I am unaware of and have never seen nor heard of.

All photos can be accessed here:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ocTp54uHSH8EIH8EX5K-ZPIf8ak5908n?usp=sharing

These pieces look very finely detailed in hand and the photographs do not really capture that very well.

What are your thoughts regarding these?

Thanks for your input,
-B.S.

b.hennick · January 31, 2021

I can only access one photo. The link is probably to only that photo rather than an album of photos.

PhoenixDude · January 31, 2021

try it now

ROKUJURO · January 31, 2021

Jay,

I can only say that my impression is that it is a modern production. Ford Hallam would give you a more precise and fitting assessment, I am sure.

b.hennick · January 31, 2021

I can see the photos note. Unfortunately, I do not like what can see. You pointed out things that should not be there. I have seen pieces glued to a Kogai before. This may be a very new piece of work. It reminds me of the old saying. "Good from far, but far from good."

Yasaka Azuma · January 31, 2021

Do not involved in items with any of these signs. This is a shame, but you have gained hands-on knowledge.

PhoenixDude · January 31, 2021

Jean, I already consulted with him a long time ago, his opinion is that they are not authentic.

PhoenixDude · January 31, 2021

Unfortunately I asked the seller for a return a long time ago and they are refusing to talk to me. Wont answer my phone calls with his secretary nor any of my emails. This was why I decided to never go back to the SFO show.

1kinko · January 31, 2021

Huh? You blame the SF sword show for your lack of diligence? There are plenty of good people and objects at the show and what makes you think you wouldn’t had made the same mistake in Chicago?

PhoenixDude · January 31, 2021

And this is why I don't post here much anymore.

PhoenixDude · February 1, 2021

22 hours ago, Yasaka Azuma said:

Do not involved in items with any of these signs. This is a shame, but you have gained hands-on knowledge.

Azuma-san,
These pictures are a great illustration, thank you.
The piece I have isn't so blatant, as it does not have any visible casting seams or bubbles, and the details on the motif elements much finer than this example, but the areas you highlighted in the bottom of your example are exactly like what is seen on these. The nanako is also 'soft' looking as in your example too. perhaps the base was cast and the motif elements added on top?

Hoshi · February 1, 2021

Good old sword show swindle.

Burning newcomers like this is just vile. Now you paid your due, you paid the protection money. Next step is to setup your stand and pass this swindle onto the next guy. Rinse and repeat until everyone gets burned.

Harder to pull off these days because reputation tends to be sticky with the advent of the internet.

Yasaka Azuma · February 1, 2021

No matter what I write, it doesn't help you anymore. However, I’d like to use this opportunity to will be a lesson for others.
Items made with the same mold have repeatedly appeared in Japan, these may be alone or in combination with tsuba as I posted.
In the case of a set, the damage actually occurs in units of thousands of dollars. Please be careful, too.

1kinko · February 2, 2021

I go the SF show every year but I take my Optivisor and I know what to look for. If you know there are bad apples at the show you should name them here and save others from making the same mistake. It’s sure easier to evaluate tosogu in person than online.

PhoenixDude · February 2, 2021

I have gotten in touch with the seller finally but he is insisting I send it to shinsa for a return, and has said he will cover the cost of a pink slip.

PhoenixDude · February 2, 2021

5 hours ago, Yasaka Azuma said:

No matter what I write, it doesn't help you anymore. However, I’d like to use this opportunity to will be a lesson for others.
Items made with the same mold have repeatedly appeared in Japan, these may be alone or in combination with tsuba as I posted.
In the case of a set, the damage actually occurs in units of thousands of dollars. Please be careful, too.

Azuma-san,

Where did you find this photo? Its an exact copy of the one I bought almost.

Yasaka Azuma · February 2, 2021

Whether online or in a store, the same Chinese phoenix can be found in many places. And I have no intention of evaluating a particular market. No matter who the seller is or wherever market it is, the basis is only the actual product.

PhoenixDude · February 3, 2021

On 2/1/2021 at 9:23 PM, 1kinko said:

I go the SF show every year but I take my Optivisor and I know what to look for. If you know there are bad apples at the show you should name them here and save others from making the same mistake. It’s sure easier to evaluate tosogu in person than online.

Yup, this is when I learned to bring a jewelers loupe with me to any event. The sellers name is Fred Geyer btw.

b.hennick · February 3, 2021

I have bought several things from Fred over the years. I have been pleased with all of them. I have always considered him one of the good guys. He offered to pay for the shinsa fees, if the set fails. Take him up on the offer. It is like someone selling a blade with a guarantee that it will pass shinsa. I have purchased swords with such a guarantee and offered a sword with that guarantee.

PhoenixDude · February 4, 2021

alright I think I may send them in through Tim Pepin, as he reached out and is offering to slip my set in with a larger shipment he has coming up.

b.hennick · February 4, 2021

Please let us know if they paper. You are doing the right thing.

Brian · February 4, 2021

Fred is a member here and has a good reputation. He is also a high end collector. I am sure this will find a resolution.

PhoenixDude · November 8, 2021

Just an update, my set did bounce at shinsa. Once I was able to get ahold of him, Fred was more than accommodating. He has issued a return for the set and covered the shinsa fees in full.

Brian · November 8, 2021

Kudos to Fred, for sticking to his word. That is the important thing here.
Many respected and old-time collectors and dealers aren't well versed on this level of modern fakes. I expect when many of us did our learning and main collecting, these weren't as much of an issue, and we now have a bit of "modern fakery" catching up to do.
It's sad. But how a seller handles the sale is the important part, and Fred stepped up here.

b.hennick · November 8, 2021

On 2/3/2021 at 4:05 PM, b.hennick said:

I have bought several things from Fred over the years. I have been pleased with all of them. I have always considered him one of the good guys. He offered to pay for the shinsa fees, if the set fails. Take him up on the offer. It is like someone selling a blade with a guarantee that it will pass shinsa. I have purchased swords with such a guarantee and offered a sword with that guarantee.

As I wrote in February, Fred Geyer is a stand up guy.

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