Kyu Gunto - Blade assessment

[Kaiser21]

This is my first posting on NMB so please forgive my lack of technical knowledge of this subject.

I’m primarily an Imperial German collector but now that I’m retired, I’ve been dabbling in other areas that interest me.

Just last week I picked up two Japanese swords through an on-line auction site. They come from the estate of a Captain who served with the British Army Royal Engineers during the campaign in Burma. I also picked up a Naval Gunto parade sword which is much better shape but with a factory blade in it.

Pictured is an Army Kyu Gunto. It was badly stored as a result the scabbard has some significant rusting on one side but the saving grace is the blade was well oiled (for the most part) and only has one area of rusting.

I suspect this sword, not being as "pretty" as the Naval sword nor having the look of a stereotypical Samurai blade was relegated to storage in the basement of the condo in which this gentleman lived on the waterfront.

I was drawn to this sword by the two mekugi pegs on it on the basis of almost all the examples I found on-line had only one peg. I sensed this one was out of the ordinary.

It also has a visible Hamon which is irregular which I hope indicates the blade was hand made.

I managed to get the blade unmounted (without losing a finger) and it appears the tang is not signed.

I have three questions for the experts.

1 - How should I go about removing the rust on the blade nearest to the Habaki?

2 – The blade appears to be unsigned. I have not touched any of the rusted areas. Can I assume that the blade was hand made?

3 – If the blade was hand made; with better pictures and dimensions etc. do you think it would be possible to narrow down it's date or place of fabrication?

I find these blades quite interesting but I'm very early into the Learning Curve so any insights would be appreciated.

 

I should say that this sword will be remaining in my collection for as long as my curation of it lasts, so no opinions will be posted beyond this forum.

 

[ChrisW]

That is because it is a traditionally-made Japanese blade (nihonto) that was fitted in kyu-gunto mounts. This is not uncommon, but nevertheless desireable! A good find even if mumei! (mumei is unsigned).

Welcome to the NMB!

As for the rust issues, you should follow the care-guide found here: http://www.nbthk-ab.org/swordcare.pdf

 

Short answer is that you should not attempt to remove any rust yourself and let a professional togishi handle it.

 

it would be helpful to the members here if you gave blade edge measurements as well as full-length pictures of the bare blade without any of the fittings.

 

 

[Kaiser21]

Chris:

 

Thank you for the swordcare.pdf and your words of welcome.

 

I will take the pictures tomorrow along with the measurements. I did some looking around and I think I know which measurements you are looking for.

 

Steve

[Kaiser21]

So, I have taken some measurements as follows:

 

The length from the notch in the Nakago to the tip of the Kissaki is 24 5/8 inches.

 

The distance between the straight edge in image #2 to the Mune is 15/16 inches.

 

Hopefully the attached images will be informative.

 

Next  five photos in my next post.

[Kaiser21]

Last five photos.

 

If any additional/ better photos are required to help identify this sword let me know.

 

Thanks in advance for looking.

 

Steve N

[ChrisW]

My gut says mid 1800's on this blade, the patination on the nakago isn't too dark. If you want to address the red rust on the nakago, GENTLY take antler (deer/elk) and scrape it off. Black rust is good rust though, its stable and helps date the blade. As for any rust on the blade itself, I would just oil it and leave it be until it sees a togishi (if you want to spend the money to do so, it is pricey).

[French nihonto]

Nice find, from what I see a hamon gunome which loses in amplitude in this approach of the kissaki, I am of the same opinion as Chris. Any late edo, or possibly any early meiji. There doesn't seem to be any major flaw. On the other hand it seems to me even red rust on the site of the habaki, it is necessary to stabilize it.

[Kaiser21]

Thank you both for taking the time to respond.

 

I must say this is good news as I was taking a risk in bidding on this sword.

 

I am a moose/deer hunter so finding a piece of antler was not an issue. I have gently removed the red rust from the nakago and near the habaki and re-oiled the blade.

 

Are there any means of narrowing down the area where this blade would have been created? 

 

It is quite an attractive blade and having done a considerable amount of research on these blades over the past week, I have developed a clearer understanding as to why people find them so appealing.

 

Again, I appreciate you having taken the time to provide your insights.

 

Steve N

[ChrisW]

I would just give it a little bit of a wait, I am sure the experts here are giving this a look.

[Surfson]

As to area, I would suggest that it is Mino school based on the regular "pine tree" shapes in the hamon.  If it were mine, I would probably take some ivory (like an old piano key cover - needs to be ivory that is fairly soft and doesn't have inclusions).   You can gently rub off the active red rust prior to oiling it.  Be very careful not to cut yourself!   Nice blade by the way. 

 

[ChrisW]

Oh right! Ivory! That would be the better material, providing you can obtain it. Thanks Bob!

[Kaiser21]

Bob:

 

Sorry to be so ill informed but  I understand that "the Mino school" implies the blade was made in the environs of Mino. 

 

In John Yumoto's book which is the only reference I have, it seems that swords were made in this area in a time frame that spans the Muromachi to Early Edo periods.

 

Does "regular "pine tree" shapes' correspond to what Yumoto refers to as "three cedar zigzag"?

 

Thanks taking the time to provide your input.

[French nihonto]

32 minutes ago, Kaiser21 said:

Bob:

 

Sorry to be so ill informed but  I understand that "the Mino school" implies the blade was made in the environs of Mino. 

 

In John Yumoto's book which is the only reference I have, it seems that swords were made in this area in a time frame that spans the Muromachi to Early Edo periods.

 

Does "regular "pine tree" shapes' correspond to what Yumoto refers to as "three cedar zigzag"?

 

Thanks taking the time to provide your input.

no because for it to be "three cedars", as the name suggests, there are three, two small and one large, (the two small for the valley). on your blade they are the same size.

[Surfson]

Not all Mino blades are sanbon sugi (three cedars) style.  The gunome can be more regular.

 

[Kaiser21]

Bob:

 

OK.   Is there any way of confirming if it was made in the late Edo period or earlier than that?

 

Sorry to be bothersome, but I'm very interested in understanding the history of this blade. 

 

I have a dozen or more Imperial German regimental swords and I know a lot about where they've been. This one is a mystery. 

[ChrisW]

Short of having some wood from the fittings tested? No (and even that would only confirm the fittings, not the blade)

 

But several factors converging including blade shape, hamon style, nakago patination will point to an approximate time period, school, even smith in many cases.

[PxN13]

2 hours ago, Kaiser21 said:

Bob:

 

OK.   Is there any way of confirming if it was made in the late Edo period or earlier than that?

 

Sorry to be bothersome, but I'm very interested in understanding the history of this blade. 

 

I have a dozen or more Imperial German regimental swords and I know a lot about where they've been. This one is a mystery. 

 

My understanding is for unsigned and undated blade, even with NTBHK certificate, it's pretty much an educated guess of the period of when the blade came from (if they narrowed it down to a school). If they narrowed it down to a specific smith, it's still not really possible to 100% confirm when the blade was made short of like.... Carbon dating. 

[ChrisW]

Short of time-travel, they (NBTHK/NBHK) are your best option to figure out when/who the blade was made.  I mean, someone can argue with their assessment, but the simple fact of the matter is that there are no experts with more experience.

[Shugyosha]

3 hours ago, Kaiser21 said:

Bob:

 

OK.   Is there any way of confirming if it was made in the late Edo period or earlier than that?

 

Sorry to be bothersome, but I'm very interested in understanding the history of this blade. 

 

I have a dozen or more Imperial German regimental swords and I know a lot about where they've been. This one is a mystery. 

The best you are going to get is by submitting to NBTHK shinsa (authentication) but with no date or signature you might only get a general attribution i.e. school and period. 
 

The blade has a number of attributes indicating Mino influence and somewhere in the Edo period is probably about right. If someone said a little earlier I wouldn’t argue. 

 

[Kaiser21]

Fair enough.

 

Many thanks for your perspectives gentlemen.

 

[Surfson]

Steve, it hinges a bit on the condition of the tang.  Was it shortened ever?  How is the patina.  It looks like it may be original, since the end is not cut straight off, but rather retains what may have been the original shape.  But sometimes they will cut them off and round the end, so that is not absolute.  It is also helpful if one can tell the patina of the steel in the tang, but the photos are not clear enough.  If you can take some better photos of the tang that allow us to see the condition of the steel, the filemarks, the holes (whether drilled or cut by chisel) etc. we might be able to make a better guess.  

[Kaiser21]

Bob:

 

I will try to take some more detailed pictures tomorrow using different angles , closer attention to the holes, potential shortening of the blade etc.

 

This is more complicated than assessing Imperial German spiked helmets.

 

..but certainly quite interesting.

 

Thanks for taking an interest.

[ChrisW]

Assessing nihonto is among the most detailed artforms you'll ever see! The amount of minutiae can be daunting.

[Kaiser21]

Bob:

 

I've done my best to improve the quality of the photos attached.

 

Should the pictures not tell the tale then I can offer the following:

 

Regarding the holes; I got my micrometer out and measured them. They are not circular. The one at the rear of the tang is visibly out of round. The diameter horizontally is 5.75mm and vertically 5.34mm.

The one at the front is better, measuring 5.46mm on the horizontal and 5.31 on the vertical.

 

The rear of the tang appears to have been filed into shape. There appears to be file marks but they are not very distinct.

 

There are file marks running vertically on the Kissaki side of the front hole. They are hard to see without magnification.

There are diagonal file marks on the section of the tang between the holes and the marks are canted towards the rear of the tang on the right side of the blade.

 

I noted that there is a depression in the metal on either side of the tang just behind the front hole.

 

More pictures to follow.

 

 

[Kaiser21]

The balance of the pictures.

 

 

[ChrisW]

Could be much older than initially thought! The first set of pictures made the patination appear much lighter than these do. I would see if there's anyone in your area that could give an in-hand assessment.

[Surfson]

It looks like it has some nice old patina, but it also has a lot of severe active rust.  If it were my blade, I would take some horn or ivory to the tang until I got as much of the active rust off that can be readily removed.  Although some may disagree, I would then likely rub in a little choji oil on it with a soft cloth to stabilize it.  

[Kaiser21]

The active rust issue was pointed out to me earlier in this thread.

 

I did use a piece of deer antler to remove some of the red rust but I guess the "don't mess with the tang" message has me erring on the side of caution, perhaps too much so.

 

 

 

 

[Surfson]

My reasoning in these cases is that if I don't remove the active rust, the rust will mess with the tang even more.

[Kaiser21]

Bob:

 

I agree with your reasoning.  I guess I'm hesitant for fear of taking too far. Once done it can't be undone.