Legendary zig-zag stitch Kai Gunto tassel

PNSSHOGUN · January 25, 2021

This rare variant mentioned in the Military sword reference books for years has been very elusive, in fact many thought it didn't exist. A Kai Gunto tassel with a zig zag stitch the same as found on a General grade tassel, well here is an example for reference:

Ontario_Archaeology · January 25, 2021

And to think I thought I was only missing the railway varient of the officer tassels! That tassel looks great.

Brian · January 25, 2021

John,
How about adding it to the Gallery with a few comments about it?

IJASWORDS · January 25, 2021

WOW, looks great on the KAI with MON and old blade. Could be an Admiral quality sword!

Dave R · January 25, 2021

Regarding the tassel, this "could" be simply an accidental product of manufacture, where one thread was a little different to the others. It's not a stitch , its a yarn turning up in the braid, which is made by a process called Kumihimo. armour braiding, obijime, and Ito are made in the same way.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumihimo#:~:text=Kumihimo (組み紐) is a traditional,also known as a kōdai).

PNSSHOGUN · January 25, 2021

An interesting theory but I highly doubt it, my best guess is they were an early tassel for high ranking Navy officers, or some other role of significance.

Bruce Pennington · January 25, 2021

It can’t be a coincidence that it matches the zigzag pattern of army general tassels. I bet some admirals got a private contractor to make these for them.

Dave R · January 25, 2021

If it turns up in the regulations, then OK, otherwise I think collectors overthink stuff.... As with "pilots swords" and Kamikaze headbands.

PNSSHOGUN · January 26, 2021

Over thinking....if it isn't chinese crap I guess it isn't interesting.

Stegel · January 26, 2021

Very Interesting, and a nice find John.

Dawson mentions zig-zag stitching, but he hasn't shown us an example. Do we 'assume' it to be the same as an Army Generals in appearance??

From what i see of your very nice example is more of a 'band' in one direction, and a haze in the other. So not a true zig-zag when viewed vertically from above.

Does it appear to be made of silk as we would expect, or a cotton??

I have an example which i found on a Pattern7 NCO sword, which i believe is cotton, not silk, as it doesn't have the 'shine' to it .

Mine is a darker colour but the stitching has more of a haphazard appearance than a 'zig-zag'. Up close it has a 'fur' like look of a worn rope.

Untortunately, the actual tassels had been cut off. (which i had heard was one of the practices some Japanese did upon surrendering their swords)

I think DaveR is right though, it needs to be mentioned in the Navy uniform regs, until then i think we keep our fingers crossed and put it down to a manufacturing anomaly.

The nature of the weave itself, lends it to diagonal threads and hence zig-zag like stitches, when one or more spools of thread in a different shade are used.

I hope all collectors are scrambling to see what they have, and more of these show up!

I've never actually heard of this with navy tassels before, but now yours is only the second example i've ever seen.

What other references apart from Dawson mention this?

IJASWORDS · January 26, 2021

I have got/seen heaps of sword variants and fittings that are not in regulations, but were genuine issue. Plus the fact that special orders were placed for non standard issue by an officer. As John says, more time is dedicated to discussing and trying to justify Chinese junk.

Ontario_Archaeology · January 26, 2021

As Dawson states these examples would be early - mid war fittings/ accessories, if they were a "misprint" I would like to believe they would have been scrapped and not passed an inspection. It isn't out of the question for these zig zag patterned naval tassels to be special order for wealthier officers and might not show up in regulations. As Neil stated there are plenty of variants and fittings not described in regulations, and I believe that one could customize their gunto how ever they wanted and play loosely with the regulations as it made the gunto more personalized, compared to something uniform where personal attachment may not be a strong.

PNSSHOGUN · January 26, 2021

@Stegel the tassel is made from silk and the stitching is the same pattern as the General tassel. It's difficult to catch on camera but is visible in hand. I say it is likely early because of the heavy fading and early tassels had issues with the dye running/fading with water contact. This tassel was on a sword for along time and has all the signs of appropriate wear as such. This photo may show the same pattern as a General tassel:

Bruce Pennington · January 26, 2021

Looks identical to me.

MarcoUdin · January 26, 2021

I was about to comment that their is a nice post about Tassels in the warrelics forum but it seems Stegel is already here who i believe made the post.

As for the Tassel John, i would be inclined to agree with you as they seem so similar. I believe it's a real tassel, but we'll likely never know for sure why they were made.

Dave R · January 26, 2021

A couple of people here appear to be somewhat "butt-hurt" over my comment, much to my surprise. All I did was to point out how these tassels were made, with a link, the possibility that it may be a production fault, and that we would need documentation to confirm it as a type. Did I prick someones bubble?

By the way, if you think a thread is beneath your notice.... don't follow it!

Dave R · January 26, 2021

12 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Over thinking....if it isn't chinese crap I guess it isn't interesting.

It is interesting, I just think we need to know more before reading too much into it.

PNSSHOGUN · January 26, 2021

No malice here David, or bubbles burst. It is only disturbing how much traction fakes or non Japanese swords have been receiving of late. Thought it would be nice to divert some thinking towards something more exciting to long time collectors.

Bruce Pennington · January 26, 2021

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

nice to divert some thinking

I noticed that! Ha! So my ploy worked!!! Sheesh, the things a guy's gotta do to get someone to post stuff around here!

Just remember John "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

Ontario_Archaeology · January 26, 2021

From an archaeologists perspective I think it is important to have as many confirmed real examples as possible documented for all to see. We can then analyze the patterns, similarities and differences together comparing the rare item to what we have confirmed. The most similar items we have to this zig zag navy tassel are the army general tassels, and even those vary from early - late war models. If we want to be more "scientific" about our analysis of these rare items I think we should have well detailed side by side pictures comparing the multi-coloured general tassels (early - late war variants) with these naval ones, what John has posted is a good start. In this case we have 1 naval example, if we can track down pictures of a few more to see how they compare to one another it would be beneficial to our understanding of them, however we will have to stick with comparing them to general tassels for now.

This might be a bit over the top, but if we could try and standardize the background colour and the lighting conditions in which we photograph our tassels / gunto, I think it would make comparisons to other items a lot easier as colour and certain areas of the items will provide more information.

Kiipu · January 26, 2021

Below is a link to my naval zig-zag tassel inquiry and Nick's reply to it.

Launch documentation for the 1937 introduction of the new Navy Gunto (Posts #30 to #32)

I thought to myself what if someone dyed an army general tassel brown? Would it not give the appearance as is seen here? I realize this is rather far fetched but should be taken into consideration and the tassel should be carefully examined to rule this possibility out.

Dave R · January 26, 2021

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Below is a link to my naval zig-zag tassel inquiry and Nick's reply to it.

Launch documentation for the 1937 introduction of the new Navy Gunto (Posts #30 to #32)

I thought to myself what if someone dyed an army general tassel brown? Would it not give the appearance as is seen here? I realize this is rather far fetched but should be taken into consideration and the tassel should be carefully examined to rule this possibility out.

I look forwards to seeing your experiments in dying original Generals tassels brown......

PNSSHOGUN · January 28, 2021

Another collector has reported coming across a few over the years, nearly all attached to high quality Kai Gunto.

PNSSHOGUN · December 8, 2021

There is an example of this zig-zag stitch navy tassel in the Dawson reference book, on a Minatogawa shrine sword (pages 273, 276, 277). It is similarly faded, making it difficult to make out & capture in photos, but definitely has the same zig-zag stitch.