Kantei challenge

[Rivkin]

It's been a while, so here is a kantei challenge. Its one of my favorite blades. Nakago has been photoshopped to cover the writing (obviously). I can also add that unfortunately its one of those cases you bring to a club if you want to gravely embarass the experts, because this particular school is not well known for this style. Frankly speaking, atari is not expected here. But dozen in principle can be guessed.

[Mark S.]

I guess I’ll put my head on the chopping block first... Oei Bizen tachi?

[Rivkin]

Interestingly enough, it is part of Bizen production, but the time is different.

I have to admit to never have guessed Bizen myself. Personally I would pick something like Rai imitators, maybe Nosada.

But its indeed Bizen.

[Hoshi]

Strange one. 

 

Hizento would have been my kantei. Nosada possible, versatile guy, could do almost anything. 

 

Now with Bizen in mind. There is not a single element on this blade which would be in line with anything before Sue-Bizen to me and the hada is not what we see in Oei. So this leave late Muromachi, Offshoot of Yozozaemon? These guys did do some Suguha with fine hada (here for example). Shape isn't the typical late muromachi blade though. Perhaps a special order. 

 

[Jacques]

No description, no measurements => 

 

 

[Bazza]

Sue koto Yosozaemon Sukesada??

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

All I can say is that with that hada, I would likely never have gone to Bizen. Pretty outstanding quality there.

[lonely panet]

im gonna trough t

  On 1/25/2021 at 10:04 AM, Bazza said:

Sue koto Yosozaemon Sukesada??

 

BaZZa.

Expand  

i was about to say sue bizen kiyomitsu maybe genki  ???

 

im thinking late sue because of the yamashiro influence.

 

2nd guess is kamakura bizen/yamashiro den?? o suriage. hmmmm sanenaga besaue of the utsuri

[Brano]

Because I'm based on the information that the blade is zaimei (probably ubu).

According to the suggestion, I would go to Shinshinto
At the same time, I know that Kirill loves Koto - I'm curious about the result

[Bazza]

Without the bo-utsuri I would have said Shinshinto.  In calling Sue Koto I'm looking at the sugu boshi and wondering maybe a Shinto work...  Many decades ago I once saw a Sue Koto Bizen sword with stunning hada in suguba, so I thought my call above was worth shot.  We will learn something for sure...

 

BaZZa.

[Brano]

  On 1/25/2021 at 12:13 PM, Bazza said:

Without the bo-utsuri I would have said Shinshinto.  In calling Sue Koto I'm looking at the sugu boshi and wondering maybe a Shinto work...  Many decades ago I once saw a Sue Koto Bizen sword with stunning hada in suguba, so I thought my call above was worth shot.  We will learn something for sure...

 

BaZZa.

Expand  

You're right, Barry
these are my false eyes of a beginner
I knew these pictures reminded me of something
Kirill already published it here in another thread a few months ago :-)

[Gakusee]

Indeed the bo utsuri points to at earliest Oei and more likely well into Muromachi.

Super fine hada points to tatara-produced, uniform tamahagane used by united Japan.

The nakago shape is also well into Shinto and there is a mei katana side. 
So one needs to find a Shinto/Shinshinto Bizen located or Bizen-name bearing smith who produced Yamato/Yamashiro inspired konie deki suguha hamon.

 

in fairness, I would have gone for Hizen or Oei Yasumitsu had it not been for the clues dropped by Kiril. 

[Mark S.]

  On 1/25/2021 at 1:36 PM, Gakusee said:

there is a mei katana side. 

Expand  

 

This response isn't directed at questioning you or your quote... I'm just trying to confirm (for someone not good at this) what I 'think' I see and used your quote as a starting point..

 

Isn't this signed tachi mei?  And the stepped down nakago is styled in the Efu Tachi style (really not sure).  So was this a presentation blade or some other 'special order'?

[b.hennick]

The clear masame hada in the shinogi strongly suggested Shinto. The wide noiguchi in suguha and hada suggested Hizento. I would have gone for 4th -6th generation Tadayoshi.  I did not see koshi sori, utsuri or choji all Bizen characteristics. 

[Jean]

« The clear madame hada« 

Are you getting obsessed Barry...😂🤣

[b.hennick]

Thanks Jean. I hate autocorrect.

[b.hennick]

The point of a  kantei exercise is to provide a typical example so that people can figure out what they are looking at. You don't learn much from an atypical blade. Would you want to kantei a Norishige that lacks matsukawa hada, or a Muramasa where the hamon is vastly different on both sides of the blade?

[Gakusee]

Barry - completely agreed.

I think choosing a “Bizen” blade from a period when there were hardly any pure Bizen blades but blades inspired by so many intermingled traditions is misleading.  In reality, Mino and Bizen started dominating in 15-16c but then there were so many offshoots across different schools with hybridized features that it is difficult to point to pure styles, unless the smith deliberately chose the most obvious and associated features of the particular gokaden (eg Hankei and Soshu, K Munetsugu and Bizen etc). 

 

Mark S - I assumed it was katana mei as I took this for a later blade. You are right that actually a tachi side has been shown and if Kiril implied that the signature was on that side [as he obfuscated the mei and only tachi side was shared with us], then I have probably made a mistake and it might be signed tachi side. 

But much more importantly than guessing on which side the signature is, we should focus on the quality, workmanship, characteristics. 

 

[b.hennick]

Hizen smith signed katana on the tachi side.

[Ooitame]

My inital thought was Hizen.  Maybe one of the Norimitsu 

[Hoshi]

Kantei is about matching traits to a maker, not to guess the signature per se. The more archetypal the blade the more these things should converge, and by extension the more applicable the lesson. 

 

Now I don't think there is anything wrong with atypical ones interspersed between typical ones, because it goes to shows either the limit of our knowledge and system, or the fact that there was unexpected variation or versatility in the work of a particular smith. Would be good to have more Kantei exercises on the board, these are often the best kind of threads. 

[b.hennick]

At my sword club, I ran a kantei for quality. The five swords presented were of different quality. Some had kizu others had no flaws but were not particularly well made, others had no flaws and were better, leading to the best sword. People were asked to rank each sword. The group discussed the least favoured sword , then the next least favoured up to the most favoured. At each stage the purpose was to determine what makes a great sword and what detracts from a blade. Every sword had a suguha hamon so that a flashy hamon would not affect the outcome and become the focus of the discussion. 

To me, first is to get the jidai ( period of manufacture) and second the quality. Once you have the level of quality you can eliminate a huge number of smiths and then go on to School.

 

[Rivkin]

I have to admit to being provoked by this:

Yokoyama Bizen Katana - Suō (no) kuni Nagahiro - 周防國永弘 - SWORDSOFJAPAN.COM - Nihonto Message Board (militaria.co.za)

Yokoyama Bizen usually worked in a very distinctive fashion, but most of them from time to time tried to do suguha. Those have strong  Rai flavor with tight itame hada, but always tend to fail in utsuri. With one exception. 

 

This one is:

備前長船横山祐宗作 元治元年二月

Apparently Yokoyama Sukemune is not even listed in Sesko's monumental catalogue of swordsmith names. He probably started as Yokoyama Sukenaga's student, but his own active period was so late he managed to make just a few swords before Meiji took its toll. Yet in talent I should argue he stood at the level of was one of the best in shinshinto. His utsuri is second to none for the period or frankly for any later Rai influenced works, Tadayoshi, Nosada etc., a multi-layered structure of black and white stripes. The forging is exceptional. There are some Enju and early Rai blades I would value a bit more, but it stands above Nosada in quality and above much of what Rai Kunitoshi did. But I have to admit not being personally enamoured with average Kunitoshi's pieces.

 

 

[lonely panet]

i need to go back to school

[Gakusee]

So, this reminds me of the Sukenaga, who signed as the 57th generation Tomonari. Also the 58 Sukenaga. Style wise and execution wise nothing to do with Bizen, let alone Ko-Bizen.

Incidentally that lineage is also part of Yokoyama “Bizen”. The thing is, the example I saw had Mino influences. 
 

This exercise is useful in that we need to look into Shinshinto stuff more, at least I do. 

So, nice to keep learning. 

[Ooitame]

Interesting shinshinto blade, is it a Utushi? Is Nakago Ubu? What is the double machi/munemachi for?

[Rivkin]

  On 1/25/2021 at 10:38 PM, Ooitame said:

Interesting shinshinto blade, is it a Utushi? Is Nakago Ubu? What is the double machi/munemachi for?

Expand  

 

That's a part where I have to scratch my head. At first I thought maybe for some bizarre and probably mounts related reason the nakago was narrowed down, especially with some kanji going all the way to the edge, but then looking at his other signatures he apparently did sign this way. The rundown of hamon looks very natural.

Maybe he felt like adding this highly unusual and antiquated feature to this work. Maybe its indeed utsushi of something well known, which I don't know of.

[Jacques]

  On 1/25/2021 at 2:51 PM, b.hennick said:

The point of a  kantei exercise is to provide a typical example so that people can figure out what they are looking at. You don't learn much from an atypical blade. Would you want to kantei a Norishige that lacks matsukawa hada, or a Muramasa where the hamon is vastly different on both sides of the blade?

Expand  

 

 

Fully agreed. 

[Brian]

Would you only ever want to study the exact textbook examples of a smith's work and never look at or be able to identify his other work that differs? I personally find it very interesting to have to kantei works that are completely out of the box. It isn't (here on the nmb) a competition and there is no ridicule for being wrong. Or prize for being right. So no harm done, and it can only be educational.
In other words...lighten up Francis!
Keep them coming Kirill.

[Jacques]

  On 1/26/2021 at 12:10 PM, Brian said:

Would you only ever want to study the exact textbook examples of a smith's work and never look at or be able to identify his other work that differs? I personally find it very interesting to have to kantei works that are completely out of the box. It isn't (here on the nmb) a competition and there is no ridicule for being wrong. Or prize for being right. So no harm done, and it can only be educational.
In other words...lighten up Francis!
Keep them coming Kirill.

Expand  

 

What do you think you will learn except that an average blacksmith (chujo) made a suguha, a common thing in Bizen Yokoyama. This kind of kantei doesn't bring anything.  

 

About Sukemune, if he is not quoted in the Markus's book, it's just an oversight.