Wazamono

[Mark Green]

With the discussion of wazamono going on on the other thread, I thought I would start one just for this topic.

My 'feeling' about the whole Wazamono things, is that it was mostly about money. Because of this, I'm not too sure how scientific the methods were.

I do not have the good books on this though, so my opionion is based on a gut feeling, and my knowledge of human nature.

Because a money value was placed on the ranking, I'm sure the big sword dealers of the time may have had a big say in the testing.

Most GREAT old swords were left out??? Likely they were afraid of damage.

For you guys out there with the good books on this, What was the method of scientific research used in these tests?

What do YOU think?

Mark G

[John A Stuart]

Hi Mark, I think there were many tests performed and it was an accumulative appraisal. The older more rare swords would have been avoided since some of the tests would have been detrimental to the swords. Here is an excerpt.

 

"In 1853, an exhaustive sword breaking test was conducted at Shinshu Matsushiro-han in Nagano prefecture under the rule of the Sanada family. The test was performed in the presence of three observers and four Ometsuke (official checkers). In this test, seven swordsmen were involved in the breaking of 12 swords to determine the strongest. It was the sword made by Yamaura Minamoto-no-Saneo that emerged champion. Of the 12 sequential articles that the blades were tested upon, the seventh was a helmet owned by Kahei. In this case, no gash was made in the helmet, rather the sword itself was bent by the blow.

 

A sword made by Izumi-no-kami Kanesada had an inscription next to the signature which indicated the blade's success in helmet cutting. The blade, a 52.9 centimeter wakizashi, was owned by Saigo Takamori - one of the three famous revolutionists of the 1800's that were responsible for changing the Edo government to the Meiji government. Another blade of the same period shows a similar inscription, "Kabutowari", next to the signature. This blade was made by Izumi-no-kami Tadashige and was owned by the famous professional assassin, Tanaka Shinbei."

 

 

Here is a link from Kanetoyo's website in which he describes the body cut tests performed by various testers including the Sanada family.

 

http://www.geocities.jp/kanetoyo2666/tameshigiri.html

[nagamaki - Franco]

My 'feeling' about the whole Wazamono things, is that it was mostly about money. What do YOU think?

Mark G

 

Reasons for test cutting ranged from being as simple as the owner and/or sword maker wanted to know how well the (new) blade performed (during a time of peace), to questions of integrity being raised due to the blade being old, or previously damaged and repaired, or having undergone a shape change, or a worrisome kizu, umegane, etc. . For some of these same reasons test cut blades should always be examined very carefully. As for being mostly about money, hmm.

[Ted Tenold]

Cutting tests were about performance. Any associated costs to perform them, or value added was incidental. Broken blades are worthless weapons. Proven weapons are testiments of "fit for particular purpose".

[Mark Green]

Hi guys,

I wasn't speaking of cutting tests. I was speaking of the Ratings that came out, conducted by ???, that made a smith Wazamono or not.

Cutting tests were a whole different thing. Anyone may have wanted to test their swords down at the local jail. That was very common.

I'm talking about the Man yen value placed on swords according to the 'Nihonto Wazamono Nyumon' 1974, based on the 'Kaiho Kenjaku 1797', and the KKB of 1830.

These books established the first Wazamono rankings, and also assigned 'Man Yen' values.

I was just wondering if anyone here had seen these books, or has them, and could fill us in on the science behind the tests. Or was it just the sword dealers of the time getting together to say what was what.

How many swords were tested, and just how was the control done?

Were the blade edges all sharpened up by the same person? were the cuts all made by the same person, or group of people? What was the test material?

If there was no controlled science, behind the tests, than they were iffy at best.

[Mark Green]

Hi again,

Did a bit more digging http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sharp.htm

If only 200 or so swords were tested according to the KK, than I would think the whole thing is just fluff.

As always, it would depend on the sword in question.

It sounds like they tried to use swords of about the same size and weight, but I would think, that unless many hundreds of swords were tested, under the same conditions. The results would be very much in question.

Which once again brings me back to the money question. If your sword making smith/school could get the best ranking, your swords would sell for more.

Who was paying the testers? Who sponsored the tests?

MOST nihonto will take your arm off like butter. I would think it would be very tough to say who's swords were sharper all the time, without some type of uniform test.

What do you think???

Does anyone here have these books?

Mark G

More http://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

[reinhard]

What do you think???

 

I think you're on the right track.

 

reinhard

[Brian]

I'm not going to dispute a centuries old tradition or study, however I do often wonder the following:

There are how many swordsmiths listed in Hawley's? Maybe 30,000? Let's say that 20% are double listings or erroneous (just maximising any possibility)

Now maybe 25% are too late for wazamono listing. That leaves us maybe 18,000 smiths. Even if we halve that giving maybe 10,000 Koto and Shinto smiths...that leaves a LOT of swords that would have needed to be tested. Maybe the top 10% would have a reputation that would allow a judgement without personally testing. That still leaves 9000 smiths that needed rating, at a best case scenario. The togishi and style of the blade would have to be taken into account. A smith may make a hirazukuri blade one day, and a shinogi-zukuri blade with lots of niku the next. Not sure if they would both cut the same.

I don't know where this leads, and like the yen rating that is useful as a comparative indication, it can be useful. But I am not sure how literal the ratings can be taken. Scientific methods using the exact same criterion every time would be more reliable.

I think the personal status and reputation of a smith had a lot to do with his rating. Outlying smiths might never have had their swords exposed to the tests.

As with all things Nihonto, it is up to those with the knowledge to judge for themselves the skill and beauty of a sword, guided by the research that was done in the past and using the existing texts to assist them. I personally wouldn't put too much emphasis on the sharpness rating in all cases, although there is no doubt that many swords were indeed tested and rated.

How are these ratings seen in Japan today?

 

Brian

[Marius]

MOST nihonto will take your arm off like butter.

 

According to this:

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=zLDVL5FoL ... re=related

a European broadsword will do the same...

 

This documentary shows tameshigiri with a katana and a broadsword (go to 3:51/9:13). I was shocked to see the primitive sword to be (almost) as efficient as a katana...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

This documentary shows tameshigiri with a katana and a broadsword (go to 3:51/9:13). I was shocked to see the primitive sword to be (almost) as efficient as a katana...

 

In others words, does a katana kill better than another sword?

[Gabriel L]

I was shocked to see the primitive sword to be (almost) as efficient as a katana...

Hello,

 

As someone who enjoys arms & armour from a variety of eras and cultures, I have to protest calling a medieval/renaissance European sword "primitive." Like most mainstream sword presentations, the TV special you linked to is not 100% accurate about nihonto nor European swords - but that's besides the point. European blades were different from nihonto, and in some ways required less complex and laborious construction, but were not primitive. Many were made from good steel, were very well balanced, were given decent heat treatments that included tempering (in the strictest sense of the word, something that many Japanese blades were never subjected to as it tends to dull the surface activity), etc. Many of them were beautiful, some in an honest and simple way, some with detailed and skillful artistry.

 

Just as Japanese blades have been ridiculously hyped up by excessive and unfortunate rhetoric both here and in Japan, European arms & armour have been unfairly and inaccurately reviled by the ignorance of popular culture ever since Victorian times. I'm not just talking about myths, which are bad enough, but an overall attitude that is not supported by the reality. That is something I like to counteract when I see it.

 

Here is another youtube clip to enjoy:

 

Thank you,

-GLL

[Jean]

European arms & armour have been unfairly and inaccurately reviled by the ignorance of popular culture ever since Victorian times

 

I am remembering a cutting test through an Helmet or iron bar with a Wilkinson sword

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Each blade should be judged in his own cultural, historical and geographical environment.

Wars hardly were won, civilizations hardly crumbled for the effect of just one weapon.

[Guido]

Without going into the details - which are the subject of an article I'm writing on for some time now - I'd like to point out that neither the Kaihō Kenjaku nor the Kokon Kaji Bikō gives any monetary values of the tested swords or smiths. I've seen up close the first (at the NBTHK) and own the latter (which contains 7 volumes). Also, one couldn't simply walk into a jail to test one's sword; at that time Suemono Tameshi was highly regulated.

 

I think a few misconceptions stem from a chapter in Nagayama Kokan's "The Connoisseur's Book Of Japanese Swords":

The book Kaiho Kenjaku, written in 1815 by Yamada Asaemon Yoshitoshi, ...

The Kaihō Kenjaku was published in 1797 (not 1815) by Tsuge Heisuke Masayoshi, based on information given by Yamada Asaemon Yoshimutsu and a few other testers; Yamada Asaemon Yoshitoshi was only 16 years old at that time.

Needless to say, Yamada tested only a limited number of swords, and does not seem to have included any old Koto masterpieces.

"A limited number" is just an assumption, and depends anyhow on how one defines it. The Kokon Kaji Bikō gives rankings for 1,111 smiths, and lists many more, which I personally wouldn't call a "limited number." There are also quite a few "big names" of the Kotō period included; in other words: famous smiths were tested, but maybe not famous heirlooms such as Meibutsu. There's even a report about a Masamune tested, but it failed the Wazamono ranking. No one would argue that this failure resulted in discount prices for Masamune blades .

 

And finally: *Ryō-Wazamono* is kind of a "modern" reading, the correct reading is *Yoki-Wazamono*.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I've been told Hankei was killed by a kesa-giri at the moment of a "free test" in Edo, Is that true?

[Mark Green]

Guido,

Great info bro. So you have done the reaserch, What do you think about the ranking?

Bragging rights. or sword dealer/maker profits???

Mark G

[Ford Hallam]

Guido,

Great info bro.

 

[Jacques]

Needless to say, Yamada tested only a limited number of swords, and does not seem to have included any old Koto masterpieces.

"A limited number" is just an assumption, and depends anyhow on how one defines it. The Kokon Kaji Bikō gives rankings for 1,111 smiths, and lists many more, which I personally wouldn't call a "limited number." There are also quite a few "big names" of the Kotō period included; in other words: famous smiths were tested, but maybe not famous heirlooms such as Meibutsu. There's even a report about a Masamune tested, but it failed the Wazamono ranking. No one would argue that this failure resulted in discount prices for Masamune blades .

 

And finally: *Ryō-Wazamono* is kind of a "modern" reading, the correct reading is *Yoki-Wazamono*.

 

IMHO I think Nagayama speaks about the blades which were tested by Yamada himself.

[bluboxer]

Greetings,

tempering (in the strictest sense of the word, something that many Japanese blades were never subjected to as it tends to dull the surface activity)

I must disagree with this statement as all blades are tempered (yaki-modoshi) immediately following the quench (yaki-ire) or hardening.Many are tempered several times to thoroughly stabilize the steels micro-structure.If this is not done the blade will crack and/or break on it's own or as soon as shock is applied (i.e.it will fail in combat).

How well a blade cuts is dependent upon edge geometry,mass and technique.Two of these variables are controlled by the smith whilst the third is the cutter.Many tests by the same cutter would have more relevance than if everyone were to conduct his own tests,therefore a somewhat regulated method of test cutting by specialists.

I would have much more faith with a ranked smith than one who's blades have failed a test cut and would also pay more for it.

There is an axe in my shed that can also go through an arm like butter but it's mass is so great that I would not want to face an opponent with a lightening fast katana,I would be sliced into ribbons.

 

Alan

[John A Stuart]

No. I have been lucky enough to partake in yakiire in Japan, doing it at the forge myself and watching. Not all blades are tempered. John

[bluboxer]

I am sorry to carry this off topic but;John could you please explain to me what happened to the blade after it was removed from the quench tank?

Alan

[John A Stuart]

Sure. We took them to a wire wheel to remove the clay compound (clay, powdered stone, powdered charcoal, and secret ingredient ?) and brushed on a weak acid to bring up the hamon, if weak it would be redone. Then off to polisher. That's it. Maybe other kaji have various techniques. One shinsakuto I had made had three susequent draws to temper. I only was meaning not ALL. John

[Brian]

Interesting. I have seen a video where they did the tempering afterwards, and some where they didn't. Looks like it is up to the smith and his personal methods.

We do of course refer to Japanese swords as "tempered" and I am sure know that this is an incorrect useage of the word. We also call the hamon a "temper line" when it isn't. I guess we do know what we mean though. Kinda like we have changed Gendaito and Showato to denote more than just an era. Some things just make collecting easier

 

Brian

[bluboxer]

Thanks John,I should have known better than to make such an all inclusive statement.And after further contemplation agree that the final process of tempering is reduced in severity (removing a blade from the quench tank while it is still way too hot to touch (220C) and letting it cool in air is in itself a very mild temper) or skipped entirely.A smith will know his steel and what works for him.

However; I posit that the application will dictate the severity of temper by the smith.If he is making a blade that is to be tested and recorded he will forsake some of the subtle beauty of various surface features and make it tougher with a higher tempering temperature.Conversely;if he were making a gift or wanted to push the envelope of artistic expression he could skip the formal tempering process in order to retain certain features of his steel and handiwork.

Back to the original topic:The cutting tests were most likely under very close scrutiny by all involved as there was a lot at stake.More than money was the importance of honor.IMHO; the higher prices that were commanded by highly ranked smith's was a consequence of excellence.

Alan

[Gabriel L]

My last OT post in this thread: I would like to thank Alan (and Brian, and John) for "tempering" my own inaccuracies, such as they may be. I think Carlo hit the nail on the head at any rate.

 

I'll shut up now,

-GLL

[John A Stuart]

Just to clarify this, I e-mailed a friend in Japan to get the technique used by a full time smith. Without going into all the details, what it boils down to, in his forge and experience, ALL blades are tempered after hardening to relieve stress. So there you go. Nothing is simple. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I think Carlo hit the nail on the head at any rate.

 

You know my heart is divided between different weapons so I perfectly got your feeling...

 

What's OT ?

[Gabriel L]

What's OT ?

Hi Carlo,

Sending this as a PM so as not to break my promise [EDIT]: "OT" stands for "off-topic." :lol:

Have a very merry christmas,

Ciao,

-GLL