Identification help

[Itomagoi]

I have here in my collection a single Menuki and Kashira. If I see this correctly, then this type of Koshirae is also in the book of R. Fuller and R. Gregory on page 42/43 to find. 

[Itomagoi]

Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945

[dwmc]

Additional information: Plate 55 and 56 as pictured by Peter.

 

 

 

Dave M.

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Itomagoi said:

a single Menuki and Kashira.

Game on, boys!  That looks very well made. And we have 4, now.

 

So, Fuller could only speculate, which is what we're doing as well.  These are better made than the normal "Java" sword, but my money is on the idea that it was a late-war contract with a shop, location unknown.

[BANGBANGSAN]

19 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Game on, boys!  That looks very well made. And we have 4, now.

 

So, Fuller could only speculate, which is what we're doing as well.  These are better made than the normal "Java" sword, but my money is on the idea that it was a late-war contract with a shop, location unknown.

Bruce 

I like your idea

[dwmc]

Obviously interesting enough for Fuller to have one in his personal collection. No, I wouldn't bet on it being "Java" made as well !

Would still be interested as to where. The answer is out there, your area of expertise Bruce...

 

Dave M.

[ribendao]

On 1/20/2021 at 12:48 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Well, I’m pretty sure they were not doing this during World War II. But I could be wrong.

I just found out that in a Japanese context the word 造 could be short for 造兵 which in Japanese apparently translates to "Arsenal."  I figured this could be relevant. 

[Bruce Pennington]

34 minutes ago, ribendao said:

I just found out that in a Japanese context the word 造 could be short for 造兵 which in Japanese apparently translates to "Arsenal."  I figured this could be relevant. 

Nice catch Jonathan!  The "new" or "unusual" way of marking this tsuba (and by connection the whole gunto) may be expected under the ad-hoc conditions they were facing in that last year.  Thanks for connecting that to this stamp!

[Kiipu]

On 1/20/2021 at 2:46 AM, Inna said:

Guys, I`m trying to get information on this sword. Since I`m a newcomer to Japanese swords, I`d appreciate your opinion on it, what era it might be and if you could point out flaws.

 

I ran across a similar stamp on a scabbard (edit: tsuka) as the one you depict on your tsuba.  It is located toward the bottom of the webpage linked below.

Kanenori 兼則 1943-10 昭和十八年十月

 

[Bruce Pennington]

41 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

 

I ran across a similar stamp on a scabbard as the one you depict on your tsuba.  It is located toward the bottom of the webpage linked below.

Kanenori 兼則 1943-10 昭和十八年十月

 

Do you mean this one on the end of the tsuka?

[Kiipu]

Yes, that is the stamp.  I should have said tsuka and not saya.  The numbers in red look like 943. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hard to say Thomas.  The one on the tsuka is incompletely stamped.  Seems like it might be something else though?

 

Update edit:

If you flip the tsuka upside down (the numbers on the other side will be upside down.  Of course, the stamp could have been applied upside down) it starts to look possibly similar:

 

[Dave R]

 If it's in Dawson, then it's legit, even if it looks like ....

 

This also answers the question as to why we discuss such things,.... to find out what they really are! If we dismiss stuff just because we don't like it then we are not really engaged in research. 

 

 Page 82 of F&G Japanese military and civil swords and dirks has a brief mention of very late war "home defence" officers swords. What I noticed was the blade description as having two widely spaced mekugi-ana, though only one is used. It looks to me like someone was making a standard blade that could be used for NCO or commissioned officer.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Dave R

[paul griff]

Hello Inna,

                   I would say a genuine sword made in occupied islands near the end of the war for collaboration troops....Not a quality sword but a genuine piece of Militaria....And as said I would ignore that dealers description...

Regards,

               Paul..

 

[lonely panet]

has anyone though that F&G got somethings wrong? i know one collector that has contributed to every dawsons and F&G and he completely disagrees with some of there listings. 

hmmm not to bismerch there efforts but it was early work,  with maybe not all the facts.

 

imho Dawsons holds more weight with me, and i use to own 3 or 4 swords listed in both F&G

[Shamsy]

Absolutely agree, Hamish. A sword being published does not equate to authentication, nor is all information published beyond amendment.

 

However, while the board members are often correct with initial impressions, we have collectively been wrong about enough swords that rather than dismissing swords out of hand, we should spend a few minutes to look. If speculative posts are not your thing, best to avoid them. If you want to state it is fake, perhaps do so constructively and provide some reasoning why.

 

Here is a photo I saved of one of the swords F&G published as ersatz. I'd lump them with island swords, but a repeated pattern. No real information to add I'm afraid.

 

I quite like seeing these swords irrespective of authenticity. It's interesting and informative and irrespective of outcome, I find the debate enjoyable when civil. Carry on @Bruce Pennington and @Stephen.

 

 

[lonely panet]

i do thoughtly like your post and the way you expressed it. rather respectful. but i also 100% dont agree with the existance of island swords.

the one simple thing that made me form this idea was a old man named SNOWY NOBLE,  this man was a family friend. he was stockman that was on the kokoda and Bull tracks. as a army muler.

 

he once told me that  he and the inlisted blacksmiths making fake swords from what ever they could find by copying captured Japanese swords and selling them on, dishonest i know. i also handled one too. and the one thing the failed to get right was the mekugi, after that you could have said it was a ertz/island sword

but if he said they were good enough to fool the US soldiers i will take his word for it. i know i cant express this person characteristics in words but if he said it, it happened to the letter. 

 

that is why i will never take island swords seriously. whe something is poorly made, and hard to distingish form fakes what can we do? dont get me wrong i would very much like there to be more IJA sword models to be found. means more to collect but for me its a string being streched imho

call me a stick in the mud, but hey we all have our opinions and i do respect most of them posted here, i just disagree with some too

 

[Shamsy]

There are absolutely 'jeep spring swords' (that is the term that I hear more frequently used) made by diggers to be sold to US servicemen and there is no doubt that these are mixed into collections and estates as genuine wartime swords (which they are in a sense). The diggers also used to make and sell flags to the US servicemen. There was demand and they created a supply.

 

I agree that it is near impossible to pick these out too. I use the term 'island swords' as a catch all for the many weird and wonderful variants, whether collaborator swords, prison camp manufactured swords, the spring swords Dave mentioned a sword repair team creating, indigenous copies, souvenirs, digger made swords.... it's just a catch all term, pretty broad. Most of these swords are one of a kind, but there are a few repeated patterns. My only requirement to call these an island sword is that there has to be appropriate age/patina to not be dismissed as a recent fake.

 

I make no claim to which swords fit into which category. I think the only ones that are really all that possible to define are the ones inscribed with the Javanese 'mei', since there are historical accounts of the steel works on the island producing swords. All others are a guess.

 

I have no doubt that some of the swords described by Snowy and the diggers are included in this mix. Conversely, I was sent a 'Japanese' sword and an officers map satchel with a full history of it's finding by the Australian veteran. No financial interest, sword was only sent to get more information. I don't disbelieve the story. It's not glorified and there was no financial interest. It was left behind in a Japanese complex and found by the Aussie. It's another island sword, cruder than Japanese make but looks a bit like one. While I can't say for sure, I like to believe that the story was genuine and see no reason why it wouldn't be. So I don't discount that there are at least some swords that may have an origin other than the souvenir swords made by diggers.

 

How to pick which is which, well I think that's about impossible. 

 

Fun to speculate though, as long as everyone recognises it is only speculation. 

[Kiipu]

Planned sword production in China for the Japanese Army for fiscal year 1945, 1945-04-01 to 1946-03-31, was 10,000 swords.  The information is coming from a September 1946 United States Army intelligence report on Japanese ordnance activities in China.  The Americans interviewed both Japanese and Chinese ordnance officials and visited many of the factories making ordnance.

[antiquegallery]

add a photo from the Book

[Kiipu]

I have been able to tentatively identify these swords as made in Indonesia, formally Dutch East Indies, during the 1943 to 1945 time frame by the Japanese army.  The Japanese Army established an arsenal at Bandung バンドン, Java, in October 1943.  I think this arsenal is probably the source for these swords.  If not the actual source, then the arsenal supervised the production of them.

 

The British landed on the island after the war and that is why they are showing up in the United Kingdom on a consistent basis.

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, Kiipu said:

The Japanese Army established an arsenal at Bandung バンドン, Java, in October 1943. 

How are we (or you) going to formally document all the discoveries you're making Thomas?!?!  This is YUGE news!  I a definite step in identifying these swords.

[Shamsy]

Yuge news indeed! 

 

May I ask what specific information led you to that conclusion, Thomas? The  sword I remember seeing with the Java mei have been found in copied Type 98 mounts. 

[dwmc]

Excellent research Thomas ! If your information turns out to be accurate, which is highly likely, Fuller apparently had a suspicion Java was possibly the source of these swords.

 

I need to remind myself occasionally the sphere of influence of Imperial Japan during that time period. Many areas of Japanese occupation were thousands of miles removed from the mainland. The desire or need for swords in these remote areas continued without the availability of traditional Japanese sword smiths. Therefore, the production of swords (if needed) fell upon the local craftsmen under the supervision of the Japanese.

 

If this was the case, what I find a bit fascinating, is how the craftsmen in these remote locations were allowed to apply what I guess would be considered their "local flare" to these creations. Although, the argument could be made they weren't allowed to forge identical copies of the famed Japanese Shin-gunto!

 

However, Shamsy did say he had seen a copied type 98 mount with Java blade??

 

Just a thought,

 

Dave M.

 

 

 

 

 

[ribendao]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:39 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Do you mean this one on the end of the tsuka?

Yes this is the same stamp. Both are the character 造 inside a circle. 

[Bruce Pennington]

29 minutes ago, ribendao said:

Both are the character 造 inside a circle. 

So are we talking “made by“ as a meaning? Or are we looking at a shop logo? Ideas?

[Kiipu]

On 2/12/2021 at 11:48 PM, Shamsy said:

The  sword I remember seeing with the Java mei have been found in copied Type 98 mounts. 

 

There are several threads on those ジャワ刀 [Java swords] at NMB and WRF.  The one with the clearest markings can be seen at the link below.

An Appraisal on Some Japanese Swords Please Sword Number 3

 

As you state, the ジャワ刀 seem to be officer's swords based upon the fittings while the 造刀 [zō swords] being discussed here are most likely NCO swords as this is the tassel that shows up on them, or at least on two of them.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Kiipu

[Kiipu]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:39 AM, Itomagoi said:

I have here in my collection a single Menuki and Kashira.

 

Do you by chance remember from which country these fittings were purchased from?

[ribendao]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

So are we talking “made by“ as a meaning? Or are we looking at a shop logo? Ideas?

The first time I mentioned the “made by” idea I was thinking more in the Chinese context of the use of 造. But I suspect it is short for the Japanese word for arsenal (造兵）.  Like the other user pointed out in the picture he posted, the tsuka is numbered 943. So I believe it was tsuka number 943 in some Arsenal somewhere. Therefore I believe tsuba marked 造 in OP’s post could also be a mass produced piece allocated for an arsenal. What arsenal though is the real question.

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, ribendao said:

What arsenal though is the real question.

 

Sorry, I've been moving and reading things a piece at a time and forgot that it was already mentioned that the 造 could be shorthand for Arsenal.