Identification help

[Inna]

Guys, I`m trying to get information on this sword. Since I`m a newcomer to Japanese swords, I`d appreciate your opinion on it, what era it might be and if you could point out flaws.

Thanks

[DGARBUTT]

Modern Chinese reproduction

[Bruce Pennington]

Dale could be right.  Is this yours? or pictures from a seller?  I'd really like to see clearer pics of the tsuka (handle), close-up of the blade tip, and clear close-ups of the nakago (tang).  It has many characteristics of a late-war island-made sword (like the canvas same').  But the gold stamp yells "Chinese fake".  Maybe one of the translators can come in on that stamp?

The island-made swords don't usually come with the round, plate, tsuba either. 

At best, an unknown; at worst a fake.

[ribendao]

  On 1/20/2021 at 3:52 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Dale could be right.  Is this yours? or pictures from a seller?  I'd really like to see clearer pics of the tsuka (handle), close-up of the blade tip, and clear close-ups of the nakago (tang).  It has many characteristics of a late-war island-made sword (like the canvas same').  But the gold stamp yells "Chinese fake".  Maybe one of the translators can come in on that stamp?

The island-made swords don't usually come with the round, plate, tsuba either. 

At best, an unknown; at worst a fake.

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Its the Chinese character 造。 Basically means to create or make. For example 在中国制造的 means "made in China."

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/20/2021 at 4:12 PM, ribendao said:

造。 Basically means to create or make. For example 在中国制造的 means "made in China."

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Well, I’m pretty sure they were not doing this during World War II. But I could be wrong.

[Inna]

  On 1/20/2021 at 3:52 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Dale could be right.  Is this yours? or pictures from a seller?  I'd really like to see clearer pics of the tsuka (handle), close-up of the blade tip, and clear close-ups of the nakago (tang).  It has many characteristics of a late-war island-made sword (like the canvas same').  But the gold stamp yells "Chinese fake".  Maybe one of the translators can come in on that stamp?

The island-made swords don't usually come with the round, plate, tsuba either. 

At best, an unknown; at worst a fake.

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Bruce, thanks a lot for your info. I`ve attached some new pics of higher quality. If it`s still not informative, I`ll be able to provide better ones later.

[Inna]

  On 1/20/2021 at 3:52 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Dale could be right.  Is this yours? or pictures from a seller?  I'd really like to see clearer pics of the tsuka (handle), close-up of the blade tip, and clear close-ups of the nakago (tang).  It has many characteristics of a late-war island-made sword (like the canvas same').  But the gold stamp yells "Chinese fake".  Maybe one of the translators can come in on that stamp?

The island-made swords don't usually come with the round, plate, tsuba either. 

At best, an unknown; at worst a fake.

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[Bruce Pennington]

I've enhanced the last 2 shots.  I've short on time today, but I'd like to continue this later.  The kabutogane looks legit late-war and the nakago is made much better than what we normally see in fakes.  But I's still bothered by that "Made by" stamp.

 

How is the fit with the tsuka (handle) and tsuba/seppa (handguard and spacers) set?  Is it tight or loose?

 

Would still like a closeup of the blade tip.

[Stephen]

I dont see modern.

I know forced aged and this isn't.

Nakago is nothing like fake chinese from that era. Shots of kissaki please. Also any activity in the blade.

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm looking into the mon, too.  Chinese fakes don't have mon on the menugi.

[Stephen]

  On 1/21/2021 at 3:30 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Chinese fakes don't have mon on the menugi.

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I was going to ask for clear shot of the menuki. Looks like sun or something ive seen before. Better shot will till

[Bruce Pennington]

I can't find that mon (though I'm not the best at finding them!), but it reminds me of the early Army sun-ray pattern found on a couple of custom kyu, recently.  Nick Komiya said the pattern was army, with a large "org" in the center.  Smaller orb was for police. 

 

Discussed HERE on Warrelics.

 

[Stephen]

Better than what i came up with.

 

Malaysian Sun

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/21/2021 at 4:20 PM, Stephen said:

what i came up wit

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Still, yours may be heading more in the right direction.  The number of rays, for Japanese police badges, in Dawson's book, are 5, or 8, or, 16 (one odd one with 6).  This one seems to have 9.  I don't know if the Manchuko govt used police.  If so, could this be a Manchukou?

[Stephen]

I like the blow up Bruce but would like chrisp close up.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/20/2021 at 10:46 AM, Inna said:

trying to get information on this sword

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Inna, still with us?  Could we get a clear, close-up of that emblem on the menugi I had enlarged in post #12?  Also a good clear close-up of the blade tip and a section of the blade showing the temper line?

 

Brian, what do you think of moving this thread to the Military Section?

[Inna]

Guys, thanks for your comments, here are some more photos

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Inna!  I'll get some guys to look at that mon.  Steve can comment on the blade, but I like it.  I'll get back when I get word on the mon.

[Itomagoi]

Hello all,
here I have two more examples for comparison:

https://www.antique-swords.com/924-1938-model-Imperial-Japanese-NCOs-shin-gunto.html

https://www.antique-swords.com/C06-Late-War-WW2-Japanese-Army-Officers-Shin-Gunto-Katana.html

 

As Dave R. said in another thread about the menuki: "They look like Chuso release buttons for Shin Gunto..."

[Stephen]

Thanks Peter

Exact same mounts even down to menuki.

Bruce did you see small stamp on outside of mon?

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/23/2021 at 5:17 PM, Itomagoi said:

two more examples

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Thanks for the links Peter!  I agree, exact same.  I wrote to Doug at Gunto Art Swords to see if he can give us his source for claiming the model came out in 1938 as an NCO early prototype.  I'll update when he responds.  His reference to pg 78 of F & G is a discussion of what we now call the Rinji Seishiki, or Type 3.  This version is clearly not a Rinji seishiki.  We have 1945 dated blades in standard RS fittings.  These are more inline with the loosening of mil specs in the final year of the war. 

 

The identical-ness of the growing example, though, does imply they were all made by the same shop or factory.  I wish we could find one with an inspector stamp.  It would help pin down a location of manufacture.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/23/2021 at 10:36 PM, Stephen said:

 

Bruce did you see small stamp on outside of mon?

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I see that.  It's too small an lacking detail to make it out.  Same with the tiny stamp (which seems to be different) on the nakago.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I think Doug at Gunto Art swords would be horrified to be associated  with rubbish like this . The vendor of the other two swords seems  to be a dodgy English dealer . Does it not strike anyone as really odd that the same non specialist dealer has turned up two of these monstrosities !

Ian Brooks

[lonely panet]

its not Japanese, so its not worth discussing imho

 

rubbish is rubbish, who made it or when it was made makes no differance to the fact its not Japanese and its not good. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Look I'm happy to be skeptical but when there's multiple threads on this sort of crap it's really getting too much. Surely we can find something of more interest (and quality) regarding Shin Gunto......

[IJASWORDS]

John, Hamish, agree that so many crap swords are being discussed, and even in some cases, folks are trying to find the most obscure reasons to justify their lack of knowledge on the subject, even giving oxygen to discussion of Chinese fakes. 

Always a good starting point is Dawson, and Fuller and Gregory, if it is not there, well, it's probably not worth the effort.  

[Stephen]

And the list of haters grow....whaahhhaa!

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/24/2021 at 11:28 PM, Ian B3HR2UH said:

I think Doug at Gunto Art swords would be horrified to be associated  with rubbish like this . The vendor of the other two swords seems  to be a dodgy English dealer . Does it not strike anyone as really odd that the same non specialist dealer has turned up two of these monstrosities !

Ian Brooks

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Well shoot!!! The links weren't to Doug's site, they are to Antique swords. com!  I got a brain-fart when I saw them and my head said "Gunto Art Swords".  So Doug had nothing to do with these.  He did respond and said as much. SORRY!

 

As to why "WE" are talking about these ..... [sigh...] ..... you guys have been around for long enough to know the answer to that.  Should be " 'nough said", but for the new guys that may not have read THIS discussion over and over - WE are discussing this because we enjoy "Military Swords of Japan."  WWII didn't just have a beginning .. it had an end too.  I study WWII, beginning to end.  I find all aspects of the Japanese sword production, from beginning to end, fascinating, and I enjoy them all.  Yes, the late-stage gunto are Mucho Ugly, but they were part of the story.  Lives were spent making them, and many of those craftsmen died under Allied bombs while serving their country.  To me it's not just about the sword, it's about the people as well.  It's about respect.

 

Whew!  Got that out of my system .... SO, Still chasing down the emblem on the tsuka.  No positive ID yet.

[IJASWORDS]

Me thinks the MON on the menuki is a DREMEL attempt to make it look like a flower, just sayin'...... 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/26/2021 at 1:04 AM, IJASWORDS said:

Me thinks the MON on the menuki is a DREMEL attempt to make it look like a flower, just sayin'...... 

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Neil,

Are you saying they are modern fakes?  I'm still open to that, but we now have 3, and I'm sure their not just the same one re-sold and posted 3 times, gunto that are clearly from the same shop.  Close-ups seem to show legitimate age and wear.  The "dremel" work on the menuki are identical, not what you'd expect for a Bubba job.

 

Of course, there are known faker shops making near-carbon copies of their horrible fakes, so I know what I've just said doesn't rule that out.  I just think the age and wear look legit.