Sword identification

[Nicholas]

I’m pretty new to Japanese swords and I need a little help identifying this sword. Is this sword is a Kanemoto made blade and if so what generation. It has a pretty irregular hamon. Not sure what to make of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Nicholas]

[Nicholas]

https://imgur.com/a/dBC0B9P
other pics here

[quoshy]

It is signed Noshu Ju Kanemoto (濃州住兼元). Based on the sugata, to me, it seems fairly modern - 1600s, Edo or newer. IMO

[16k]

Personally, I would go with Muromachi.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Later generation Kanemoto if genuine, Shin Shinto.

[SAS]

I would think Kanbun Shinto later 1600s, that hamon is rocking. A good polish would really make it zing.

[Rivkin]

Sugu boshi, so I would argue its shinto.

The style itself is not of Kanemoto lineage, there is too much variation between the groups, the center togari is not really larger in size,  there are crab claws, nie does not stand out, overall it looks far more Bizen than Kanemoto.

[16k]

However, Kirill, I don’t think the boshi is Sugu. There is I think a togari past the yokote in one picture. That’s why I didn’t mention Shinto. Might be Shinshinto, yes, but I’m still not convinced.

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, 16k said:

However, Kirill, I don’t think the boshi is Sugu. There is I think a togari past the yokote in one picture. That’s why I didn’t mention Shinto. Might be Shinshinto, yes, but I’m still not convinced.

 

Yes, I actually paused with this one as well, trying to decide which side of the yokote the togari is on. It seems to be right on the yokote, which could still be shinto; otherwise I am surprised that with very active hamon one would go for something that close to suguha, though some people in shinshinto did that.

[Nicholas]

So what I gather from this is that’s it’s a 1600’s sword made by Noshu ju Kanemoto. Probably not that high of a point maker in the Hawleys book. But still an interesting sword. Has anyone seen a hamon like this before. I thought it was really unique. Thank you all so much for the information. 

[Geraint]

Dear Nicholas.

 

You are a brave man to conclude that it is from the 1600s based on our guesses which run from Muromachi to Shinshinto!  We do not even know if this is a wakizashi or a katana as you have not given us the nagasa.  For what it's worth here ares some thoughts.  The kissaki is quite large and would have been a fraction longer before the slight damage to the very end.  The nakago is signed and has typical takanoha yasurime so no reason to suppose that it is not Minoden.  Mino smiths worked all over Japan after unification and worked in many different styles of hamon.  The person who moved the machi did not do a very good job, look at the lines of the nakago mune and ha, they are awkward.

You have the sword in hand so can confirm what happens to the boshi,  what can you tell us about it?

 

Enjoy.

 

All the best.

[Jacques]

21 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Sugu boshi, so I would argue its shinto.

The style itself is not of Kanemoto lineage, there is too much variation between the groups, the center togari is not really larger in size,  there are crab claws, nie does not stand out, overall it looks far more Bizen than Kanemoto.

 

 

Just for fun, oshigata of shodai and nidai kanemoto (come from Mino to taikan) ...

 

[Rivkin]

If the implication is that it is similar to the present sword then I don't think its correct. These have well defined togari, well defined groupings of such, each separated and rising above the "valleys", groupings are mostly resembling each other. They are also not slanted left and right, or become thin long lines, crab claws or tobiyaki. They also will look quite differently in hand in terms of nie...

If one is to go this way, one can pull Kanetomo, who indeed forged in heavily Bizen skewed fashion and indeed could resemble this blade in oshigata.

[Jacques]

Rivkin,

 

Pay attention at boshi, both are sugu and these swords are koto while you arge sugu boshi = Shinto....

[Rivkin]

Purely personal feelings:

That would make sense were this by the shodai Kanemoto. But since it does not appear to be the case - what's the relevance.

The style is basically Bizen-based, even if one accounts for convergence of Mino and Bizen around Tembun. I would further argue that the particular execution, selection of elements hints towards later than mid-Muromachi origin.

Can non-shinto Bizen style have sugu boshi? Sure, ichimonji boshi can be interpreted as such. Its not ichimonji. There were some exceptions where one finds active Bizen hamon in Muromachi with sugu boshi. That does not look like either of them also. Yes, finding sugu boshi on a hamon like this does hint towards shinto. Not exclusively for sure, I don't think there is any kantei rule that comes without a hundred or so known exceptions, but its a point. 

[Stefan]

Late Sue Koto. Sugata is neither Kanbun, Keicho, Keian, Genroku or what so ever.

The  nakago is sligjtly machi okuri, please see the nakogo funbari  by example. 

Hamon, Looks  like the typical Sue-Mino mixture, but not the typical  Kanemoto-Style.

[Rivkin]

I almost agree with the opinion, but have couple of very personal arguments:

Keicho or very close to it. Sugata is a bit atypical for anything typical. Hada is already quite dense, too dense for koto, either shinto or shinshinto is more likely. Hamon has a wide "base", it shows very little vertical variation except in the topmost portion and is very glassy in appearance. Hamon itself is very eclectic. Its a tid bit more nie based than expected from Bizen, odd-groupings of togari, some togari are sharper than typical Bizen choice, some togari are kind of gumone-like standing by themsleves, so it has a Mino feeling to it. At the same time very thin, slanted, sharp angled togari are definitely Bizen like. Such eclectics is more shinto than koto. I would bet its more masame based in shinogi ji, but that could be koto mino as well. I think its sugu boshi. Overall to me looks like very early shinto.

Is it gimei? Can be, can be not. Its not outside the realm of possible later generation Kanemoto experimenting with something like that.

[Jacques]

On 1/13/2021 at 7:01 PM, Rivkin said:

 

The style is basically Bizen-based,

 

 

It's your opinion but it's not the truth 

 

Hada is already quite dense, too dense for koto

I wonder how you can say that based on pictures which show nothing about hada... And some koto hada are very dense  (Kuniyoshi for example)