satsuma Rebellion wakizashi

[micah]

I bought this sword  recently im not  worried about the blade i just want to know your  opinion on the mounts  i will show the blade  anyways                                                                                        Sincerely Micah

[vajo]

Simple Mounts. Menuki was ripped. The Same is/was just beautifull.

Why you think it is a Satsuma sword?

 

 

[16k]

Agree with Chris. Same is too good for a Satsuma sword, provided these even exist.

[Shugyosha]

2 hours ago, vajo said:

Simple Mounts. Menuki was ripped. The Same is/was just beautifull.

Why you think it is a Satsuma sword?

 

 

Because that story was used to inflate the price? 🙂

[kissakai]

I know someone who collects Satsuma tsuba but have no idea what they are

 

[Shugyosha]

8 minutes ago, kissakai said:

I know someone who collects Satsuma tsuba but have no idea what they are

 

One here, looks quite attractive:

 

[micah]

the sword was  Quite cheap  and i was just saying that because they match a few sastuma  rebellion swords i have seen and this one has been used alot  it is quite thin  i think it has been  polished past it's hamon and what are these marks are they from  bending           Micah

[16k]

Yes, I think they are shinae.

[micah]

then if it is not from satsuma then where i mean the fittings are quite  Are  quite  plain  it has most  likely been in a scuffle  based on the blade it is  obvious that it is a edo or late 15 century blade based on the shape what do you think? Micah

[SAS]

Those marks appear to be too deep to be shinae; they look like kirikomi to me, but how they got there nobody will be able to say.

[Jacques]

17 hours ago, 16k said:

Agree with Chris. Same is too good for a Satsuma sword, provided these even exist.

 

 

One here :  

 

And it's tsuba :

 

 

[Alex A]

The Fuchi seems interesting due to its shape but this may just be the angle.

 

Be good to see clear images of it by itself.

 

Reminds me of a pre-edo type that are hard to get a hold of..........possibly

[16k]

Hi Jacques,

 

When I say "provided they even exist", I’m not denying the existence of the term or the sword but referring to a theory by Dave R that I believe is interesting and could be close to the truth.

 

According to him, those so-called Satsuma swords were actually simple Arsenal swords.

 

He thinks the term Satsuma Rebellion Swords was coined to refer to Satsuma-age as it is well known Satsuma Samurai used their swords until almost nothing was left of it and, by analogy, those poorly made arsenal swords were assimilated to Satsuma-age.

 

This, of course, is just a theory but one I think makes a lot of sense. Why would Satsuma rebels only used poorly made swords when they certainly had their usual Samurai swords?

 

JP

[micah]

so could you tell me if it is one or not?   or what   region could have came from?    Sincerely Micah

[vajo]

That is what i think too JP.

These Satsuma rebels were highly ranked Samurai. Yes they had auxiliary troops too (maybe some peons). But i think they where equiped with simple arsenal swords if they had no weapons.

 

Micah i personally would say it is the sword of a poor samurai.

[Jacques]

2 hours ago, 16k said:

Hi Jacques,

 

When I say "provided they even exist", I’m not denying the existence of the term or the sword but referring to a theory by Dave R that I believe is interesting and could be close to the truth.

 

According to him, those so-called Satsuma swords were actually simple Arsenal swords.

 

He thinks the term Satsuma Rebellion Swords was coined to refer to Satsuma-age as it is well known Satsuma Samurai used their swords until almost nothing was left of it and, by analogy, those poorly made arsenal swords were assimilated to Satsuma-age.

 

This, of course, is just a theory but one I think makes a lot of sense. Why would Satsuma rebels only used poorly made swords when they certainly had their usual Samurai swords?

 

JP

 

 

The term satsuma rebellion refers more to a koshirae than to the sword itself, the one whose picture I have shown is a wakizashi mumei ubu from the province of Satsuma (probably Shinto). I would like to add that Takamori's forces included people who were not samurai and had to be armed, hence the need to equip the existing stock of unmounted blades.

[16k]

My thought too Chris. I don’t think much can be said without better pictures of the blade or seeing the sword in hand, but I don’t think it is one of the so-called arsenal blade.
 

Jacques, I don’t think That the fact it is primarily applied to the Koshirae negates Dave's theory. One was probably associated to the other by extension. And I agree with you that those were probably handed out to either poor Samurai or conscripted peasants.

[micah]

here is a side pictures i dont have the sword in hand yet    sincerely Micah

[vajo]

Micah it is impossible to say something about the blade from your pictures.

Try to catch the whole shape without habaki. If possible make some sharp pictures under a good light or sunlight to see the hamon and hade and make a picture from the boshi.

 

Good luck.

[micah]

like i said i dont have the sword yet so i cant                                                                                                                               micah

                          

 

 

[Dave R]

And here I am.... There is a definite style of koshirae we label as "Satsuma" and the term is as good as any, though we need to differentiate from the distinctive mounts known to be used in the Satsuma Han.... Which is one of the reasons I prefer to call them "Okashito." 

  It's a largely ignored area by collectors because they are fairly shabby and the blades often tired or even flawed. Dealers love the term just as they love "Pilot Swords" and "Kamikaze Tanto", they do have a living to make after-all. I have tried to define what makes a sword a Satsuma, because there are a lot of swords that look like they may be, but are in fact probably just cheap swords. I was frustrated in this endeavour before, so I will just say, if it has washers as menuki and the spiral type Itomaki (katatamaki) them pay attention to the blade.... It was thought to be usable, but not worth keeping!

[Dave R]

.... Something I just remembered, these were so cheaply assembled that sometimes the blades were glued into the tsuka with resin or lacquer, so be careful when dissasembling.

 In the case of the sword starting this thread, I think it's just a lower end sword and not an Okashito/satsuma. Not every tsuka had menuki, I have one in my collection without. Hemp Ito over shark skin and clear lacquer over all.

 

[micah]

5 hours ago, Dave R said:

it's just a lower end sword

so does this mean it was just ment as a working sword since it is so plain  like it was not  supposed to be pretty and the only  Purpose of this one was a weapon.      micah

[SteveM]

Without provenance, we are just guessing. Merchants, farmers, craftsmen could also carry wakizashi length swords for self-defense while travelling, so this particular item could have been in the posession of almost anyone. 

[Dave R]

Here we have a kimono merchant and assistant helping a lady with her purchase. Meiji period, and they wear wakizashi as they serve on their shop, why, because they are handling money and goods of serious value. Probably fairly nice pieces as well given the value of what they sell. (As second hand kimono dealers, they might have picked up a bargain).

The other reason for a Chonin to have a sword is when travelling on the road, there are bandits out there. In this case probably a cheaper piece.... and it might even be rented....

 

[micah]

well i got the sword it was in a fight a big one most  likely the rebellion the saya was cut into the blade has a cut into the spine edge to edge hits  it has been through alot as someone  Mentioned they used there swords until it was done thats the case with mine it has been used to it's limit it does have a bend near the tip but cool  piece of history i got  it is poorly made it does have slag  Inclusions and a blister  and the cuts of course 

[Dave R]

Regarding the good same, the hilts of these cheaper swords often re-use parts and pieces, which can have been quite high class once upon a time in the past. This one from my collection is a classic. High class same, spiral Ito, but not katatamaki, the kashira is an old kabutogane from a handachi and the menuki is part of a tobacco pouch clasp.

[micah]

here is part of the blade it is  super thin  

[micah]

more pictures lol i have been working so had hard time getting these posted .micah

[Dave R]

Very like this one I have, a bit of a step up from the typical Satsuma. Note non matching menuki, but same style of wrap which is well done but in cheap material.