Sunagashi, Imozuru ...or?

[george trotter]

Hi all, Happy New Year.

I know you are all already bored with 2021 so I thought I'd ask a question.

 

Here is a pic of what I have always thought was sunagashi (sand lines)...not kinsuji or inazuma

BUT, here is a drawing of almost the same feature but called imozuru (potato vines )- from Markus Sesko: Kantei & Hamon & Boshi #1.

After all these years I must confess I am now not sure what to call it...I have probably been wrong for years (wouldn't be the first time)...would any of our learned members like to comment on: 

1. Sunagashi

2 .Kinsuji 

3. Inazuma

4.Imozuru

 

Thanks...

[Fuuten]

From what I recall when it comes to specifics.

 

Kinsuji are chikei that run through the hamon where sunagashi are not. Therefore I think they could theoretically have an identical shape(?). Waiting to be corrected.

  

3. From  http://sho-shin.com/glossary.htm

INAZUMA "Flashes of Lightning." Like KINSUJI but arcing in JI from the YAKIBA.

 

4 I don't know, it's not in this glossary.

                 

Happy new year!

[16k]

Personally, and probably erroneously, I would call them Kinsuji.

[paulb]

Hi George,

Happy new year 

Potato vine, Imozuru, is as far as I have seen, been used to describe a feature almost exclusively seen in Satsuma blades. It is a very dark, almost black line running within the hamon. The Oshigata you posted shows an almost continuous line (or lines) running parallel to the hamon. Personally I would call it sunagashi. Inazuma and kinsuji tend to run more randomly through the hamon or in the case of inazuma outside as well. Sunagashi tends to follow the linear weld lines of the ji running in the hamon. Potato vines seem to do whatever they want but are generally noted as being very dark/black.

[16k]

Paul, aren’t Sunagashi supposed to be the same color as the Hamon? I thought those dark, short lines were Kinsuji.

[paulb]

Hi JP

I think we are entering the grey realms of interpretation.  This is opinion rather than fact but I think all of these features are created by nie amalgamating into liner structures.  Possible exception being potato vine which I think is different quality steel. If they are nie based the colour will depend on the polish and viewing orientation so all can appear black, white or bright and sparkling

[george trotter]

Thanks for your comments all.

The line shown here in my hamon is "white". It is by Tsukamoto Masakazu 1942 who learned from his brother Tsukamoto Okimasa (who also made these lines called sunagashi in oshigata shown) who was the student of Kasama Shigetsugu who also made these lines (not named in oshigata shown). both oshi from Tokuno "Nihonto Zukan" pp.167, 171.

My hamon lines here are about 5 inches long and another "milder" section appears up the blade in the mono-uchi.

To me, and I agree with what Paul says, these just have always been sunagashi, but when I see virtually identical features in books/sites being called by other names it makes me "wonder" how accurate I am.

I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but I think I will stay with sunagashi...but always willing to hear new ideas.

Regards,

[Rivkin]

Japanese as a language has some Siberian characteristics. Poor on adjectives, which are often imported, but very rich on nouns used to describe characteristics. Plenty of examples where definitions overlap and which one to choose is a question. Add to this that many collectors love to show off by pulling out some extremely seldom used term and insisting "that's what it really should be called".

I would also go with something as simple as sunagashi here.

Here is a picture with some of the related activities where I would say Inazuma, Kinsuji and Sunagashi exist somewhat separately.

[Surfson]

The imozuru appears to be thick, continuous and long, like a vine.  The sunagashi is usually several parallel lines that are often interrupted but maintain their parallel nature.  I have always had a hard time distinguishing inazuma and Kinsuji, as both seem to run under the nioiguchi and tend to be of moderate length and on the thick side.  i think that they may differ by level of darkness.  

[Gakusee]

I agree with Rivkin above. My simple rules are:

- several strands parallel to each other: sunagashi (sand strands) 

- single strand but not passing through habuchi: kinsuji.NB you could have several and multiple kinsuji but in sequential longitudinal hamon parts. 
- kinsuji passing through habuchi like a lightning: inazuma

 

When the hataraki is longish and composed of nie/konie and does not fit any of the above, I tend to follow the NBTHK and just call them niesuji 

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

What about these examples? The first I would call sunagashi, but the second which occurs in more discrete lines I would call kinsuji, even though there are several running parallel to each other?

Cheers,

Bryce

[16k]

I would call them like you. However, if we follow Michael's rules, the second would be sunagashi. As I said earlier, for me, sunagashi are like sand dunes or ripples near a shore. They are white, There are several of them usually close together (though a single white line is a sunagashi for me too). On the second sword, they are further apart and black. They would be Kinsuji for me. The same type of line starting in the ji and crossing through the Hamon would be an inazuma for me.

 

ohhh! Potato, poteitoo, my head hurts!

[Yama Arashi]

A pretty good consensus laid out here. Sunagashi, kinsuji, inazuma (and while drastically different, sometimes sudare-ba) absolutely kill me - I'm quite drawn to that detail work.

Here's an example of a really intense hamon that I've always considered to be fairly extreme with both sunagashi and kinsuji. (but apparently imozuru can apply as well)
I always thought of sunagashi as the pattern (akin to 16k's analogy) where you would drag your fingers through sand, and kinsuji as a stark, darker single streak. (Running parallel in the below example.)

Sometimes you can only find the sungashi in the right light, with it being very subtle, and other times it absolutely jumps off the surface - kinsuji tends to always be rather apparent, and can appear dark or light depending on lighting.

https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2020/20172-4.jpg




And this example has very subtle sungashi that can't really be seen in this photo, but the contrasting single line running in the ha and across the yokote, I consider kinsuji.

[Andi B.]

Ok, that's what I think is sunagashi:

[16k]

  On 1/2/2021 at 4:28 PM, Andi B. said:

Ok, that's what I think is sunagashi:

 

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That’s what I call it too. I also see chikei and ji nie

[Brian]

JP,
Best to use the Reply box at the bottom of the page, instead of using quote every time. We don't need the last post reposted every time

[Bazza]

  On 1/2/2021 at 4:28 PM, Andi B. said:

Ok, that's what I think is sunagashi:

Expand  

Brian,

Sorry.  I did see your advice above, but I put this here for a reason.

No one has mentioned it before, but to me this photo of Andi's illustrates hotsureba (a hamon in its own right) rather than sunagashi.(a feature additional to a hamon proper).

 

BaZZa.

[george trotter]

Thanks to all for your comments. It seems reasonable to accept that many members see a certain hataraki in different ways, and are inclined to describe it with some 'variation'.

This is Fine with me...it means I can see and describe hataraki 'my' way.

 

So, for me, my blade has sunagashi. Great.

 

Regards to all,

[sabiji]

I have just discovered the topic. May I throw in another aspect? The construction of blades. Because this can also create effects, which inside the hamon look like monster-kinsuji (Here I bet strongly that this is the case with the pictures from answer 13, Picture of Aoi).
The very first image reminds me of the effect in Awataguchi Tadatsuna. Here very long kinsuji cut off the ashi "halfway". A kantei point, which most likely goes back to the construction of the blade.
Another example, which is located "further up". I own a Kinju. With it, you often find the effect that so-called "monster kinsuji" cut off the tops of the gunome, so that they look like "put on". An effect in the interaction of cutting steel, side steel and hamon.
As I said, it is a possibility. But if you see particularly long, conspicuous "kinsuji", which also strongly influence the hamon, you should not exclude construction-related "hataraki".

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

This is a sue-bizen sukesada and I don’t think That this kinsuji is the result of the construction (sanmei,kobuse...) like you mentioned. It is more the result of refining of the steal and  yaki-ire. Ofc the construction creates also similar hataraki but in my opinion they look less naturally.

[sabiji]

Tanto in Sanmai-Konstruction. Looks quite natural. Image is from USAGIYA.

[16k]

It is something you can see a lot in modern sanmai Chinese replica.

[DoTanuki yokai]

Ok, this Blade is sanmei and I think the hamon feels like there is a border inside where  the parts connect.